SPEAKER_01 0:00

I liked all subjects at school and so I was really into sort of English, history and arts and humanities. I found it incredibly difficult to choose. I think there's something in curiosity and wanting to understand how things work. I didn't have a computer science background, but I got the chance to actually learn actually the language of product management. You don't appreciate the creativity of engineering until you do it yourself, building that technology in a way that's scalable, performant, accessible, secure, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Hello and welcome to On the Pulse podcast. My name's Tony Molcock, and I'm the co-founder of Pulse Group. Today's guest is someone that I've known and worked with for a long time, Louis Badcock. Louis's currently Chief Products and Technology Officer at World of Books Group, and over the course of his career, he's built an incredible, incredibly broad perspective across products, technology, and digital leadership. What makes Louis's journey particularly interesting is that he's worked across the full spectrum of the product world, starting out in engineering, moving through UX and products, and now leading teams that bring all those disciplines together. He's also experienced very different types of organizations from major retail brands like Tesco and John Lewis through to high digital growth businesses, which gives him a really unique view on how technology and product teams actually scale and evolve. On a personal note, Louis and I have known each other and worked together for many years now. So today's conversation is going to be more like the kind of discussion we'd normally have over dinner, talking about the journey, the lessons along the way, and where things are heading next. Louis, it's great to have you on and thank you. This is this is obviously our first one. So uh it's uh it's a it's a voyage that we have been talking about for a long time, and to have you on is is absolutely great. So thank you so much, Versey, for agreeing to do it. Thanks very much for having me, Tony. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, absolutely. And um one of the questions that I we didn't actually discuss this prior to this, but I and I I've I've thought about this and I've never actually asked you in all the years that we've known each other. But I wanted to ask you why experimental psychology into software engineering? How did that how did that start? How what what what how did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

That's a great question. Um so I mean I guess this this goes back a long, long way now. We're showing our age, right? But we're absolutely showing our age, but I guess um I I liked all subjects at school, and so I was really into sort of English history and and arts and humanities, but I also liked the sciences and maths and and all of that. And um and I found it incredibly difficult to choose when it came to A levels, like what should I do there? I had to sort of choose between, you know, you can then choose three, and I ended up doing a mix there, so I did English history and maths A level, and then when I came to choose my degree, it was like, well, again, I was like, I like science, I like art as well. What do I do? And experimental psychology was sort of like somewhere in the middle, actually, you know, the sort of reasoning, arguments, essay-based subject, but also scientific discipline. And and I guess when it came to then sort of finishing uni and thinking about well, what should I do with my life? Uh sort of it was a sort of similar thing. I kind of thought, well, you know, I quite like technology, but creativity as well. And I was and I was so fortunate actually at the time that when I was sort of considering my options, and I considered all sorts of things, like from sort of you know working in the video game industry to teaching and all sorts. But I was very fortunate at the time that uh John Lewis um did a graduate recruitment uh program back in the day, and you didn't have to have a computer science background to get into technology. Right. And and it sounded and to me at the time, you know, it was kind of like it sounds very naive, but I thought, well, technology is probably going to be important in retail in the future. And this is again a long, long time ago. Um, and that that led to those conversations, and uh and they they took me on despite my uh my lack of uh sort of computer science background and uh and gave me the opportunity to actually train in engineering. So I was I I was very, very fortunate to have got that opportunity because I don't think that's available today so much so.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

No, and that's amazing, and and I did think about that because it's it is actually however I think it's 12, 13 years we've known each other now, maybe 14 actually, time's just disappeared. But I think that it's it's it seems crazy to me that I've never asked you that because you look at where you are now and you know the success you've had in your career, the career trajectory that you've had, and the the the varying different backgrounds you know within that that's made you know kind of taking you to where you are today, which we'll obviously go into uh more in the pod. But you know, it it's interesting because I think back in those days you look at you know, someone has to go that sort of traditional route with you know software engineering or computer science to go into it. And it's I think there's probably an element of that today, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. But you know, from my point of view, I still I'm still seeing quite a few people who are you know within um sort of you know product design or product management uh or software engineering uh as a vocation that don't that haven't actually done that, and they they might have done a general general assembly or something like that. But what what what are your thoughts on that? Because when you were when you were doing it at that time, I think you were saying that you know it's probably very unusual that m 95% of people would have had to have done a um you know a related degree.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think I mean um you you can understand, I guess, why the industry then sort of has has gone the way it has in terms of looking for people with uh the actual sort of relevant computer science backgrounds, and you know, particularly as the bar got higher and you know, and then these these jobs um became sort of more widespread. Um but there's I think there's something in um curiosity and wanting to understand how things work and fit together, yeah. Um that certainly I've found really beneficial in my career, but I think that is kind of probably a universal principle for when you're working in technology and software and product and design is sort of having an appreciation of of how it all works and how it fits together. So I think if you if you sort of come, if you come from if you've got that sort of structured mindset and you can sort of think about problems beyond the surface level and you ask, well, why does that happen? How does that all fit together? Um I think that predisposes you to to to quite um to to to a very useful sort of actually generalist sort of skill set. And and again, I think if you kind of think about product itself as well, you know, product management in particular, it's a very generalist sort of discipline, really. You don't, you know, there's yes, of course, there are courses you can do on product management and and and things you can do to get better at it, but it's it's also it's not like I think it's quite different from engineering or design where there are sort of there's a very sort of kind of almost a sort of specialism on those things, which you can go to great depth in. Product management is to me is is a is has always been a lot more generalist, a lot more around, you know, how do you absorb all this different different information to make a great decision um uh about what to build for your customer in the business at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And uh it's just it's just giving me a thought, actually. This question uh could be quite controversial, which could could provoke quite a controversial answer. But you were saying that you know product product managers, product people are quite, you know, quite well-rounded. And obviously there's a there's a there's a kind of a saying that goes around in our in our product world, right? That that product managers are almost sort of mini CEOs. Now, I've heard rec actually more recently in the last couple of years, I've heard different takes on that. When I used to speak to people about it, people used to say it to me, particularly at sort of more leadership level, quite readily, um, because it was a very rounded role. It was, you know, it was um multifaceted, but quite, you know, very involved in lots of different areas of that technology, the digital technology sphere. What's what's your kind of take on that as someone that and we'll we'll we'll kind of you know we've probably um it's quite easy to go off at lots of different tangents, but obviously that's one thing that it sort of triggered me just thinking that you know my thoughts when you when you said that being well-rounded. What do you what do you think about that that that sort of saying that you know that people people often refer to when being mini CEO?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah, I mean I think it's it's uh it makes for good sound bites and makes for good podcasts, probably. Um and and you can see where it sort of comes from, this idea of you know, like you know, CEO as the CEO of a company, you know, you've got this responsibility over the entire company, and you've got to consider all the different angles for the good of the company and and and your customer. And so it's multidisciplinary, it's collaborative by nature, and so you've got to, you know, and and and product I think is is obviously got that parallel because you know, to to build a great product, you've got to be thinking around, you know, um can can we do this tech tech from a technical perspective? Uh will it work for our brand? Will it work from a legal perspective, for our marketing colleagues, from an operational perspective, etc. etc. So you can see how you know if you've got to make a decision about all these different competing factors to deliver a great piece of uh technology, you can sort of see how that sort of analogy sort of uh holds. But also it is um, I think it is is definitely a bit sort of overblown to be honest. I'd agree with that, yeah. I'm hearing I'm hearing it less and less. Yeah, and I think it's also been characterized as well as like it depends on your view of CEOs as well, whether you sort of, you know, of course there are CEOs of of all sorts of different flavours, but I think uh often you've seen when when this has come up in in uh sort of the press and whatnot, you often see people sort of thinking about perhaps quite sort of uh dictatorial CEOs or quite sort of uh you know o overly opinionated, maybe. And uh I think that's sort of you know been being sort of compared in the past to well, you know, product managers being a bit like that, and uh the truth there that's an extreme, and the truth is always somewhere in the middle, really. So, but but I think you know, uh without rambling, we shouldn't wish to ramble too much about this. I think um there's there there is something there about taking that balanced opinion of across all of those different perspectives and then making a great decision um based on those different competing uh priorities.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And I I think as as our digital technology market has evolved and product product has evolved, you know, it's interesting because I think people listening to this will have obviously different opinions on on that, and you know, and I and some of that will be driven by the the the role that they hold and the and the businesses they've worked in as well, be it you know, start-up, scale up, you know, bigger businesses, which obviously in a smaller business, someone probably wears a few different hats anyway, but it's more naturally in a bigger business, you know, maybe a bit more uh sort of focused and siloed. It just depends. Some bigger businesses they they obviously work very similar to to startups, but it just depends that they're all nuanced, right? So yeah, no, it is it is interesting. Uh what I wanted to, I think then sort of that's a good segue into really starting to talk about your career because people watching this will be you know aspiring to be to be leaders within within products, um, within technology. I think your your career, you know, this this you know is it's been a fantastic journey so far. You've come into a role now which is sort of bringing you know product and technology together. It's that it's your first sort of role as as a CPTO. Um let's talk about your journey. Let you know, because obviously you've covered that you know we talked about engineering, but UX architecture, you know, product and UX, you know, leading product and UX, and then into this role now. Talk to me about those kind of those early days, those sort of foundations we talked about from that university into um into John Lewis. I mean, what what a brand to start with, um, and and really kind of cut your teeth in your on in your career. Uh talk to me about those early days and and and this sort of the journey through, and you know, which obviously quite quite a significant part of it we've we've worked, we've worked together on now. But yeah, just talk to me about some of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I mean I guess going back to John Lewis uh quite quite a long time ago now. Um, and again, as I mentioned, I was fortunate enough to get in on their sort of graduates uh uh technology program. Um and back in the day, um uh when you did that at John Lewis, everyone went through uh sort of training around their sort of mainframe technology because there's there's you know, being a traditional retailer, um they they had a lot of this very sort of um I guess old school tech mainframe technology powering their systems, and um and I've got to say, um I didn't enjoy that. Uh really there is uh for me I for me I wanted to sort of be doing something, I always had a sort of I guess a desire to do something a bit more sort of visual and more customer-facing.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Was it as you were expecting? Was it because when you go and do something like that and it's a it's a it's a I would say like a you know, an iconic brand like that. Was it, you know, and you're you're kind of out of university and you're thinking, oh, you know, you've got an idea, maybe, I mean, of what you want to do. A lot of people don't, but you might have an idea. But was it is it was it was it exactly as you're expecting? Was it vastly different? Was it how did you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01 12:36

I don't know what I expected to be honest, but it was you know coming straight out of you know being sort of in you know, school and university all my life and then into the work world. Yeah. And and the way John Lewis structured that graduate program was was kind of like a bit like a course, actually. You know, we'd go on residential courses to learn about COBOL and DB2 and stuff like this. Right, right, okay with with others in your intake as well. So it kind of had that sort of collegiate sort of student-y feel to it, um, which was quite interesting. And it was a very well-designed program as well, because you got sort of placements in different teams and things like that, and you got rotated around the business and you got exposed to all these things. So so it was, I don't know what I was expecting, but it was it was a brilliant grounding. Um and then I guess I was I was super lucky because the timing of it all, because this was, you know, again, showing my age, but this was sort of back in sort of you know 2000, 2001. And at that time, um, John Lewis had um uh were pretty visionary, actually. They they saw the that that the internet was going to be an important thing, and this was you know, before companies had websites and stuff like that, so again, really ancient, um, showing my age. We are, we are but um but at the time John Lewis made this very good decision to acquire the uh UK arm of buy.com. Um and uh and with that they sort of uh bought the technology and all the people who were building that, and they decided to build what became John Lewis.com. Um and the and very interestingly as well, it was grown as um a separate offshoot away from the main partnership business. Um so they had you know the John's office was in Victoria, um and uh but they had this separate office in Chelsea and it was all sort of open plan. Were they nice? Uh really nice, yeah. And and also um controversial at the time at John Lewis as well, because John Lewis was still quite formal. You know, we we John Lewis and Victoria had to you know wear a suit, whereas in uh in in dot com they could wear what they liked, which was uh as a source of much controversy in uh in the John Lewis Partnership um Gazette, which was uh you know their weekly um sort of internal news talking point. Yeah, so um so quite quite quite a lot of people anyway in tech wanted to work there, including including me when I found out you know that this was happening. And um, but again, I I I was very fortunate I got the opportunity to uh a role came up there and I got the opportunity to to interview for their front-end team, um, so-called front end, anyway. It was kind of you know, they're they're basically building the website, but it was a really a it's a full stack role. Yeah, and and yeah, I was lucky, lucky enough to to get uh chosen to do that and and and never look back, and it was it was such a blast. It was really because it kind of working in that it was sort of um, you know, you're working for a big corporate at the end of the day, but you're working in an environment that's more akin to a startup, and it was it was a new frontier as well. We're doing all these sort of things that were had had never been done on the internet before. Like I remember working on um a recently viewed items feature, you know, it's like you know, so sort of e-commerce 101 these days. But back then that was a brand new cutting edge, yeah. And um, and it was really exciting to put that live and see the impact it had on customers from from the day, you know, it was trying to solve a really basic problem around, you know, you've you've browsed a site a bit and you come back later and you want to get back into what you're you're you're buying, sort of thing. And we will take that for granted now, of course. But back in the day, that was sort of like, ooh, this is quite yeah, and it and to to be in a position where you know you had that immediate impact, I think that's that's been a kind of a theme throughout my career. Is I've wanted to, and again, I'm sure everyone wants to have you want to have an impact and see how that translates in the real world. And and there at johnnos.com, because we had sort of a pretty quick turnaround of of sort of building out new features and experiences, you really got that sort of kick.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I I think when you're part of something that is new and is making a difference and everyone's talking everyone's talking about it because you're almost sort of setting a trend, yeah, it it is exciting. Yeah, you know, and and it's something that I suppose it I is would it be too overdramatic to say that actually at that time, because it was sort of fairly early in your career, it could act it could help to sort of define your career and and build those sort of foundations, like strong foundations, or give you a good springboard in your career. You is it fair to say that it probably it did it did that? Oh definitely.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

I mean again I wouldn't have looked on it like that at the time. I didn't, you know, realise it when you're there. But I'm so grateful for that time because um, you know, what I learned about engineering and technology and delivering stuff there, you know, it's kind of like particularly the insight I think it gave me into engineering. And you know, I think if you're outside of engineering, um it's easy to sort of just kind of like it's kind of well, it's hard to sort of imagine what it's like. It seems like it's a very technical, abstract thing, which which which it is to a certain extent, but I think you don't appreciate the creativity of engineering until you do it yourself, and you know, there's so many different ways you can solve a problem through code, and and and and and that's that's really exciting. I think if I hadn't developed that insight back then, I don't think it would have then enabled me to go on to do the next thing after that and the next thing after that, really. So I think it's given me a really yeah really again, not it's all by chance, of course, that it just works out this way, but you took it. But in rambo grounding, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, yeah. And and do you, you know, do you think and do you feel that having that background has has has made you know a better, a better leader because of your understanding of engineering and you know just your overall sort of comprehension and day-to-day sort of working and the intricacies of it? Because I do hear feedback that um people, you know, because obviously generally speaking, like strong product uh managers, product leaders, people that have worked their way up through product, obviously, because of you know that software development lifecycle, everything they're involved with, as products evolved, that you know, it used to be that you know there was the kind of elements of product were broken down a lot more, and it didn't, you know, you didn't necessarily have to be someone that had like a reasonably good technical comprehension. Um, but what we find now is more you know, product managers are much more rounded with the the sort of user experience side with the engineering side of things, you know. Did how do you feel about that? Do you feel that that that was a real strong point that that that carried you, you know, it's not carried you, but it's helped you to get to where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yeah, definitely, because again, it's it's at the heart of how how does it work? Yes, and I think it's it's I think it's really difficult, particularly in technology, to to deliver something successfully if you're one step removed from actually how does this all fit together, what are the constraints and and what also what are the possibilities actually. And you know, tech I think the the thing with technology and engineering and um is is really is kind of like you know, it's the art of the possible. If you're not sort of if you're not really close to that, if you don't sort of know how that works, then then you're not really gonna have an inkling for what you might be able to do. Yeah. And yeah, and I think that that's that that's really limiting in your success, I think, in in building you know technology products, then if you don't actually fundamentally appreciate what is actually possible or or indeed what what what some of the constraints are. So so I I I've I've I found it super valuable and I think um and it again again, I sort of I think it's that you know what makes good when it comes to product and what makes great product people is I think when they've got that curiosity about actually how does it all fit together and and really you know kind of scraping beneath the surface to sort of interrogate actually how how does this actually happen?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah, yeah, and how does how does it how does it work and how's it got to that point? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think a lot of people watching this or listening to this would be you know modern uh I say modern product product managers that uh have probably been in the industry you know three, four, five years, are probably listening to that question and thinking, why are you asking that question? Because it's surely it's a given, right? But it is now, but it wasn't then. Yeah, yeah. And and you know, when I first started recruiting product 15, 16 years ago, it was so sort of siloed, you know, sort of product managers, product development managers, technical product managers, you know, and it just it it wasn't that their remit wasn't as broad, and uh, you know, relatively speaking, they in those days they weren't they weren't paid as the the the money they are now, and it was be it because of that reason. So it's it's definitely evolved. I think there's probably frustrations with engineering teams now if you know, even there's a product manager that's you know fairly decent technically and technically competent, but maybe not the level that they they'd expect as expectations. So those types of situations can affect um uh sort of cohesion and fluidity within sort of engineering and product teams, and that harmony, if you like. Um I think that I I I hear that a lot actually. Um so that now that's that's really interesting because I think as it's evolving more and more, it's just a it's it's a given that that you know product managers are kind of A1 in in that area and much more you know productive work can be done.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Yeah, yeah. I mean again I think there was uh this is probably less so the case now, but I think you still probably get examples of it. But I think it's taken it's taken quite a long time for product management to be understood. And I think actually there's still plenty of companies I think that that probably don't fully understand it. And I think you know, in the past you got a lot of this sort of attitude of kind of like, well, confusion with project management and uh and a sort of thought that you know if if you understand how delivery timelines work, then you know, you could be a great product manager. And that's absolutely not the case. It's an important part of product management, don't get me wrong. Um the delivery side of it is is critical, in fact. But um but I think a lot of companies sort of made that mistake that project managers could become product managers. And uh and but again, without that sort of you know, looking beyond the just the timelines of things, that curiosity of how things work on on an engineering level, but also actually more broadly across all of the the business departments you need to work with. Um that that that that sort of whole element um I don't don't think was was very well understood. Um but but is is is much better understood today.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Yeah, I think one of the difficulties or one of the challenges within our industry of that is as well, is different people within different organizations and different organizations themselves have got their own idea of what they think product management is. Yeah, yeah. And I also hear, I don't know about you, but I hear a lot of we would like a product manager who's very project-led, and then we also hear we'd like a project manager that's very product-led. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. It's like, okay, yeah, where do we start with this search kind of thing? But also that's based on the on the on the business as well and the way that they're set up. Um on that note, what is it what what what defines a good product manager for you? You know, someone that's you know been in it for as long as you have and it's evolved as we've talked about. What what what's what defines in in your you know in your mind and your experience, what does a good product manager look like to you and why?

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. Um I I think it's a really hard role actually. I think the product manager role and to be to be good at it is is yeah, is is an impressive thing, I think. Um I th I think at the core of it is um you know it's it's it's fundamentally about the the whole reason of having product managers is you know what what should we build, why should we build it, and you know what, what what we're trying to do for our business or for our customers. Um and so that's what I I always look for. The first thing I always look for whenever I'm interviewing product managers is I want to understand a time where they've had to figure out what the right thing to to build was for their particular context for their customer, for their business. Um and and and that's that's not an easy thing because there's always like hundreds of different options normally available to you of of of what you could do and what you could be working on. And it's actually it's it's easier, particularly now actually with AI, it's easier just to to build something than it is to figure out actually this is actually the the thing that's going to deliver the best results. Um so I th I think at the heart of it is you know um is is someone who can demonstrate that they've had to sort of uh think that through carefully and weigh up all the different sort of pros and cons and all the different uh options available to them and make a great decision uh at the end of the day of of what the right thing to build is. And by the way, to do that at pace as well, because of another sort of common criticism in products is that it's all, you know, people sort of disappear into theory and uh spend too long making decisions and sort of contemplating, naval gazing, etc. etc. Yeah. Uh whereas you've gotta you've you've actually got to be comfortable that you're not gonna have all of the data to hand that you'd like to to be able to make a great decision, and you're gonna have to make the best possible decision available to you with with the information available there. And that's that's really hard because you'll make mistakes along the way, you'll definitely make lots of mistakes. Um but that but that that is critical. Um and then being able to then take that and explain that to people and talk talk the language of of the business. And again, and another thing I look for is um can can you, as a product manager, speak the language of your business? You know, don't get me wrong, I'm you know, I I love all the language of product, and uh, you know, we talk about you know all the sort of you know buzzwords and design sprints and whatnot. That's fine, but also there's a place for that. And I think you know, there's t unfortunately a product's often got itself a bit of a bad reputation by using that language too much across businesses and turning those things into dirty words, and um when actually you know you're gonna cut through much more effectively if you can translate between sort of you know sort of the technical side of things to what the rest of your business speaks, yeah. Um that to be able to do that brilliantly and to be able to therefore so people buy into the decisions you're making, that that is a real skill.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And which is why the role is is so broad and so rounded and and and involved, because I think one of the other things that we that that I didn't mention beforehand when we were sort of talking about um yeah, that sort of engineering comprehension and you know user experience, etc. Another big part of it has been for a while, but increasingly more so now is data. Yeah, you know, sort of being able to be um you know data driven, um, you know, very good with that sort of you know, very comfortable with data and analytics and data sets, etc. How much does that sort of play a big part for for you in terms of you know when you're looking at people and considering people?

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yeah, I mean it's kind of it's funny you mentioned that because I don't I don't even really think about it because it's such a 101. Yes, yeah, and um I mean it's it's it absolutely has to be at the end of the day, um because you've again you've got to make decisions based on something, and and and of obviously having the data is is is the crucial underlying part of the data. Well, data drives most of the things now, right? It does. Um, but again, I think a bit like I was saying before though, part one of the challenges I think is you know, often you'll have a lot of good data, um, particularly in technology products, there's often a lot of good data available, although actually also there's often not all the data that you'd want. I've been surprised how many times uh you know you walk into companies and they don't actually have data on sort of critical parts of their business or the user experience. Um but regardless of all of that, you know, you'll you're never gonna have all of the data that you would love to be really, really 100% certain this is definitely the best thing to be doing. So you've also got to get comfortable that that that there's gonna be gaps and there's gonna be some ambiguity. Um but you know, when whenever you sort of um put something live or you deliver something, so long as you've actually got some way of measuring whether it's made a difference or not, that's that's that's the critical thing. Yeah, because again, if you can't measure it, then well, what's the point?

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah, yeah, quite, yeah, no, interesting. Okay. Um, let's take a step back. Um, because I I I'm I think I'm be really interested, I'm sure everyone else would be to hear how you know eventually sort of you you know you landed in in product, right? Full blown product. Because engineering, what was that sort of transition? Where did that trigger happen where you went from engineering into UX architecture? Because I'm really interested to to understand that because that's you know that kind of forms part of that journey into where you are now, yeah. Um and that kind of whole rounded element that we've talked about, which sort of brings so many sort of skills, injection of skills and experience into into your you know more senior roles. Where was that kind of transition in uh into into that UX architecture, which I think you I think you held that role for quite a long time, uh, John Lewis, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

That's right, yeah. So yeah, it happened. Um, yes, I was at johnlewis.com at the time and I was an engineer, been engineering for about six or seven years. Um, and at the time as well, um, this is before we had a lot of the language we have today about product and and agile, etc. Um, it was still kind of quite a new thing. Yeah. And um anyway, we we worked very kind of closely with UX and design actually at the time. And I remember actually, you know, we had like a little engineering sort of bank of desks, and we sat right next to people who were doing UX and design. Right. And because we were working on features and things that needed input from those people, we collaborated a lot informally. We just wander over to each other's desks. Right, okay. And anyway, so I and I had this again, it was sort of what led me to johnlewis.com away from the mainframe of John Lewis was actually I really wanted to be doing stuff that was customer impacting. Yeah. And so I had this interest in user experience, and also when we put features live, I kind of had an opinion around how the UX should should be actually. Is there like a natural curiosity? Yeah, definitely. I don't know. I just I just I I thought it was cool, and then I just liked liked visual stuff. Yeah. And um and anyway, so so we always worked very closely together, and I think I always had quite an influence anyway over the UX of the features I was building as an engineer. And then I was just I was just very fortunate that um a role came up in in the UX team at John Lewis in the time. I sort of it was I think I was known for having this interest and and and like for it. And uh and I I just thought actually, could I could I try out doing this for a while? And and again, well, I think that's one of the benefits. I think we might talk about this later about corporates versus startups, etc. But one of the benefits for working for a bigger company is sometimes you get those opportunities to to really pivot in your role. Yeah, which is great. Um and it was kind of like in in hindsight, it was quite a you know, quite a crazy move in some respects to go from, you know, I could have stayed in engineering and gone very far with it to be honest. And I really enjoyed it as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

But you obviously had a natural aptitude for it, right? Yeah, so because otherwise they wouldn't have they wouldn't have offered it.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

No, no. So but to make this leap and quite a quite a different sort of leap. Um But it was it was great. So yes, I got got this opportunity to to work in in UX's UX architect for journalists.com um and ended up also leading uh the team of of UX there um and kind of like kind of it coincided with a we sort of did a number of sort of major projects like a homepage redesign, a navigation redesign, a checkout redesign. And when they sort of all added up together, it looked like the entire website had been redesigned for you, actually. Which was uh and I always remember when we put that live actually in the sort of the the immediate impact we saw actually from customers on that, you know, people were exploring the site more, we had a conversion bump and stuff like this. It was it was very gratifying. Um, but again, yeah, yeah, it was I kind of like I think it was in the right place at the right time, really.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Brilliant. Yeah, I love that. Well, and sometimes that's just how it happens, and sometimes it's when you're not expecting it, yeah. Um and you you know, it I suppose it's different people sometimes. Some people embrace it and they take it and they run with it, others are a bit like, oh, and it might not flourish in the way that they would have expected, but you know, it sounds like it was something that was just such a um a curiosity for you, but you know, that yes, that natural aptitude, but something that you had a real deep interest in that you took and ran with and actually did really well with. I suppose the key crux of it now is building up to that then then, yeah. So what where where was that then that that sort of transition point where I'm I'd imagine also that it was it was kind of product was starting to kind of you know, you hearing about it in the background from Silicon Valley and you know that kind of thing. Where did that where was that tipping point?

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Yeah, so it kind of sort of happened, I guess, um again, it just sort of evolved really. And again, I didn't sort of know I was going in the direction. Um it kind of a a couple of things to touch on. One one, I sort of I reached a a bit of a what I felt was um a sort of career ceiling at John Lewis when I was in in the UX role, and um and I left and went to work for a for a startup for Ashley Clark, who were a startup at the time selling jewellery online, and there was only 16 of us there. Yes, I was head of e-commerce at Ashley Clark and so responsible for um kind of then I had responsibility for the design and the the actual technology, although we worked with a third party for that. And so that that was the first sort of kind of product-like role I had, I guess, even though we didn't sort of call it product. Um I was there for I was actually only there for a year because I got I got lured back to to John Lewis actually uh to uh to lead uh so I did a sort of did a replatform for Ast D Clark and then I got lured back to John Lewis to do the same for John Lewis. Actually, they were kind of going through a major technology program to to replatform johnlewis.com onto onto a different piece of technology, and I got the opportunity to to go and lead that. And that was kind of that was actually sort of starting to sort of be a lot more product y because that was across design, actually a bit of content as well. Right. Um interesting and and sort of sort of product as as we as we had that back then. So um um, but I I guess it was it was um so I was I went back to John Lewis for for another sort of three or four years. Um but then when I sort of really then actually had decided it was probably time to move on from John Lewis, even though I loved John Lewis and you know met my wife there and yeah, I was gonna say that we had our child there as well. So um, but um uh yeah, I when I decided to actually it was time to actually to probably move on from there when I went to Tesco, that that was probably when my product sort of thinking really developed actually. And um again, I was quite quite fortunate to come to Tesco at the time I did because they were um they were really looking to I guess revamp and revitalize the way that they were approaching products, you know. Tesco obviously massive, um very successful business um at the time as well. This was before they'd done a lot of focusing back in on the grocery, but they had a lot of other arms of the business, like the general merchandise business. Um it was obviously club card, fashion, wines, mobile, all sorts of branches to it. Um but anyway, they they'd kind of realised that they were doing sort of digital as we called it back then, and sort of in silos and in very different ways. And they really wanted to learn the best actually from how they were doing it over in the States in Silicon Valley and sort of in pro proper product management action, so to bring a new discipline to it. And so um so there were a lot of hires, senior hires that they brought over from companies like Amazon and Adobe um stateside to come over and sort of head up what was a new sort of group product function. Yeah. Um and so I I I I landed a role there, uh, responsible for I was a head of product there responsible for bringing together um Tesco customers' accounts. Um so kind of like as a Tesco the problem was as a Tesco customer, you'd probably have multiple accounts across all the different states, so different logins, different passwords, different checkouts. And that was a real problem for them if you think about you know Amazon who sort of sell everything, and Tesco probably sells everything that Amazon do, but to buy all of that with Tesco, you know, you've got to go around several different websites and check out several different times with Amazon, you can just do it in one checkout. So yeah, and never mind you know, personalization, marketing, and being able to know your customers really well if they're separate as well, Louis. Yeah, exactly. So, but um, but yeah, so anyway, uh at Tesco I was sort of had that responsibility, but I got the chance to actually learn actually the language of product management. And always remember I was I was lucky enough to go on um one of Marty Kagan's courses when when um uh he was in the UK. Um and and I remember him talking about product and and IT as well as how it being known then and how this whole evolution from back in the day before the internet when IT departments were the people who naturally sort of ended up picking up websites, but the way that IT departments were run was very internal service model and very sort of like project delivery, not definitely not product. And and I'd always sort of felt that actually from my time at John Lewis and other places where I kind of felt that there was it was just something that wasn't quite right about IT. But you don't really hear the phrase IT anymore, do you? You don't, you don't. Um, and in terms of you know nothing wrong with IT, of course, I should say, but um, but but in terms of like IT being responsible for products, yeah. And um and but that going on that course suddenly was a real sort of penny drop for me because I suddenly sort of suddenly acquired the language and realized the patterns and things that led to bad product and bad technology decisions, and it really, really sort of sharpened kind of my understanding of what good product was and wasn't really. So and and then and and then kind of being surrounded by a lot of very sort of talented people at Tesco because there was a real real real sort of swell of people who were brought in. What a great group you you were with, yeah. Really, absolutely. It was it was very, yeah, again, just really sort of transformational. Um I I just learnt a ton about about products there, and I think that's that's where I really sort of sharpened sort of kind of what what good looks like and what and what it doesn't look like there.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Yeah. And I think you know, they at that time they they probably were I think you mentioned you know Amazon as a business, they you you could you know get anything you want, you know, as quick as you want, and yeah, obviously, which is where they're why they're where they're at today, but Tesco's was kind of driving that you know at the forefront of sort of bringing you know a a kind of multi-channel retail element to to to everyone. Yeah. Is that fair to say? Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

I mean it was kind of like it was at the heart of that business, and you know, if you think they you know club card as well as being this incredible loyalty scheme. Um, you know, what's this? But also hamstrung by all the different technologies and and and the sort of the siloed nature of of how they were back then, sort of things. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

And and testimony to that is that you know that that that those sort of products that were launched are still you know absolutely thriving today. Um, and I'm sure a lot of businesses have have sort of uh you know looked at that model and gone, wow, that's that that works, it's proven, and yeah, it's almost sort of you know set set the set the tone for a lot of things. And I I mean you you had a fantastic time there, I know you did, and uh, you know, there's a lot of people that you know we've got a lot of mutual uh sort of you know connections and friends at you know from Tesco days, um, you know, that sort of cohort uh of some of some fantastic people that you know we we both interact with and and and work with in various different capacities now. Um and it really was a a great foundation in in product for you, and and and you know, I think that's probably a great kind of um sort of segue into that next element that we that we you know we're going to talk about, which is kind of that whole sort of you know bigger corporate you know uh environments versus startups because you've been very lucky to work in both. It's a real um privilege to to work in both. Some people spend their whole careers just in the corporate side of things. You've done both and you've taken you know an unbelievable amount of experience and success into those different roles, and it must be very um it's very different, isn't it? Working going into a big business, you know, early on in you know the start of your career and all the bright lights and everything, a heritage brand, um, and sort of really cutting your teeth and and learning your trade, you know, versus three different roles engineering into architecture, then into um UX architecture, should I say, into product, and with lots of people around you. And it must have been quite interesting for you because when you went to as Astie Clark, uh yeah, they were obviously a smaller business, but um you then went back into a bigger business, but you then sort of you know there was a leap of faith then into into that sort of start-up scale-up world. How was that? And how how did you find the difference between the two?

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's super interesting, I think. And and um there's sort of you know, there's this pros and cons to both. Um, but again, I'm I feel fortunate to experience all these different environments. I think, you know, in in corporates, um the sort of the strengths there are kind of you know, you've got a lot more structure and process, firepower, actually, rigo, yeah, you know. Um and and also actually, again, like I said, with John is the opportunity to actually try out different roles quite safely as well without leaving your company. That's amazing. Yeah, I was so fortunate to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

With that sort of financial, I suppose you you know you always think about you know smaller companies, it's obviously more of a risk because there's less money and you know there's investment and stuff like that. But bigger companies, there's still as much risk as I I guess because there's obviously that their their kind of uh financial foundations are spread much, much, much more widely. Yeah. And there's a there's a a huge you know there's a huge cost involved. And I think a lot of people often say to me when I, you know, I'm experiencing redundancies and supporting people through a search that have come out of a bigger company, they often say, well, actually it's a bit of a myth because in a bigger company it's just easier to to to um let people go because there's a they're almost a bit of a you know, they feel like you know, you could feel like a bit of a commodity, yeah, yeah. Um, which is um, you know uh easily more bit more easily dispensable potentially potentially. But you know, how do you yeah i it's very different environments that you've worked in as well within startups. So yeah, I'm just really interested, so I'm sure everyone else would be to to to sort of hear that and and and your perspective within them. There's a few that you've you know, one particular that you've really scaled. Yeah. And and that, yeah, that's all I think it's fair to say, you know, pretty monumental growth, relatively speaking.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yeah, yeah, so yeah, so Tony, speaking about Kazoo, obviously. I am indeed, yes. And uh, yeah, and I mean um and Kazoo was, yeah, so when I joined Kazoo, um it wasn't like so Kazoo used was selling used cars online to to customers in the UK and then in Europe. Um and um when I joined the company wasn't live to customers, there were 50 people in the company when I joined, um, and in a very short space of time the the company exploded to about 3,000 people. Um, my team grew to probably about 110, 120 people, I think, uh, at its peak. Um and what was different there from a corporate was really just I think the the pace of getting stuff done, just a lot less bureaucracy, a lot more just ship it, get things done, which was really very addictive, actually, that sort of ability to run. Um also actually, it was very, you know, being at a bit company from the beginning as well, you've got more of an opportunity for there to be, you know, when with bigger corporates like John Lewis and Tesco, they've got lots of competing goals and initiatives. They're there, they've got lots of different lines of business. Whereas when you're in a startup and creating something new, you're you're pretty much all focused on a on a single thing. And that that was one of my overriding memories of Kazoo was just um that we were there was this incredible sense of unity across the companies. We were all racing to build this unique experience and get it live to customers and make it better. Yeah, um, and and and having that focus as well, I think allowed us to to move fast and achieve achieve amazing things. Um so yeah, so you can really, yeah. I don't think I definitely um I think I think sort of contrasting the sort of startup experience to the corporate experience. Again, they're both good, and I'd encourage people to to to try both actually because I think you learn different things at different in different organizations. Yeah, yeah. Um but for For me, I think with the big corporates, one of the things I wasn't so keen on was the politics side of things. And often in those bigger organizations with a bureaucracy, sort of slower to make decisions and also more sort of people arguing from their own corner, their own department's corner. Whereas I think I'm naturally kind of like company minded. I always think about putting the I think in product you have to put the company first, think about what's going to work for the company as a whole rather than a particular department, so to speak. So I've always I think since sort of my time at sort of those bigger corporates, I've I think the choice I've always made to my next steps has always felt a bit more sort of less corporate, a little a little bit more fluid, a little bit more startup oey, and um and particularly that that sense of just you know pace and getting stuff done and out of the door, that's that's that's just you know critical, I think.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Yeah, yeah, no, that's really interesting. I think also when you've when you've then experienced that, because it must be quite it must be quite difficult because you can only you only know what you know, and you only you can only sort of base things and move forward on things that you've experienced because you draw from those experiences, don't you? Yeah. And to to be fair to to to Kazoo and your time there, it's probably almost a bit of an exception rather than the rule. It was almost a bit of an enigma because you it was it was such fast paced. I remember I remember sitting and having lunch with you. Um I think you've been at Kazoo about two weeks. I do you remember this? I think we we had lunch and you said to me, I'm I think I'm not the 50th 55th or 60th person. Obviously, we're you know, we're we're pre-launch and uh you know we're we're sort of still in stealth mode as such. And you I remember you saying that you know, these are kind of some of the plans, and basically we're gonna we're gonna do like a almost like a soft launch and we've got to we've got to basically sell this amount of units before the end of January, I think it was something like that. And I was just like, wow, how's and I remember thinking at the time, how's that gonna be, how's that gonna be possible? How's that gonna be a thing? Yeah, having worked with you know, help help helped grow loads of startups over years, I'm thinking, wow, that's ambitious. And I remember ringing, I remember ringing you for a catch-up and you saying, Well, actually, we've sort of six X that yeah. I was like, okay, well, that's that's kind of set the scene for and set the tone for how this the growth and the scale of this business is gonna go. Yeah, and and it and it absolutely did. Yeah, absolutely did, yeah. You know, and I was very, you know, uh sort of uh fortunate to be on that on that sort of journey with you. And but also, yeah, absolutely the pace, you know, is just and you you know you you you see that now um with um startups and scale ups, scale-ups that are you know that we work with that um and that pace is often driven by you know that you know the investment VC PE backed, you know, with you know, they they want results. Is that how how do you, you know, did you did you feel that? Was that was that was there an undercurrent of that all the time? Was it was it that that drove it, or was it, you know, we we want to build, we want to conceptualize and build these products and ship them and get them launched to drive that sort of revenue, that monetization piece. Was it was it was that the overriding thing, or was it was there a was there quite a lot of things involved in it?

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Prob probably a lot, but I I think the first and foremost was um we we particularly at Kazoo was about you know we've got a company to launch it. We don't we're not live yet. And there was and there was quite a lot of people as well who, even though the model had sort of already been proved in the US with Carvana, uh there was still quite a lot of people who were saying, you know, would people really want to buy a car online having never actually seen it in the flesh themselves, having just seen pictures? And we all felt pretty strongly that they would, but it was until we were alive and doing it, it was you know, it was unproven. And so there was a real there was a real energy just to get that going, um, and to actually be able to transact and do that as quickly as possible because we knew you know we were in a bit of a race and that others would enter enter into this market as well. So there was uh I would say of course there's investor pressure, but I think that first and foremost we we were thinking about actually getting this business live and off the ground. Yeah. And I think that's that's really important as well. I think you know, in any business, um, kind of like you know, you you actually want to be f focus on on the business and the customer first and uh worry about the sort of investors later because generally if you do good by by the business and the customers, then the rest of it will sort of take care of itself.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's an interesting point because it when you actually sort of stop and think about it, that that is an elementary approach and actually you know is always going to relatively speaking drive a positive end result, getting it right, getting the product right for the customers, you know, driving that sort of um you know the the the the people to the site, you know, that the actual transactions taking place, driving that revenue, then people talking about it more and more. Because I know that sort of um loyalty, retention, personalization is a big passion of yours. Yeah, um, and that's something that you know is is pretty much carried through your career, isn't it? Yeah. Within that sort of consumer side, which is what you love and what you you know you're obviously very good at. But but how does that how does that help sort of shape the way that you think, you know, with regards to as a consumer yourself on many things, right? And that's why we get so passionate about a product because it's about what we're giving to the customer, making it easy. That whole element of loyalty, personalization, retention. How much of a part does that play in your sort of day-to-day thinking and the way that you're influencing your teams?

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Yeah, I mean it's it's it's huge, it's integral to any business, whether you're digital or not, frankly, I think. Um and I think one of the things I've always sort of thought with digital is it's so you know, you're abstracted away from the customer by a digital interface. And I know I'm probably just stating the obvious here, but you know, mobile phones or a laptop or anything like that, there's this interface there, and that's that's a barrier between you and your customer, and you're not there to help your customer, there sort of to help them find the thing that's right for them. Um, and you know, we witnessed this with mobile actually, when mobile was, you know, when everyone was going on about being mobile first years years and years ago, because it was it was easy as someone working digital to just test the thing on on a desktop or a laptop. Yeah. Um you know, because you're disintermediated from actually what the customer's experiencing. And it's you just I think you have to constantly remind yourself actually about the customer's context and and what they're going through. So you you have to put you you have to keep reminding yourself of actually what's crap about the experience that you're offering them and be really be you know, call it out. We we've got this thing um uh uh at World of Books, we've got a Slack channel, internal Slap channel called uh We Are Customers, and and we encourage people to call out where there's issues on the site and all kind of like you know, this book is not the right cover or it's got the wrong description or why is this price the way it is, sort of thing. Um because again, we're trying to get people to think about you know the the personal experience um that that that that they have. And and again, it's you know, I'm not saying anything particularly um revolutionary here to say, but of course, you know, personalization, knowing your customer and being able to tailor an experience so that it's reflective of what they're interested in. I think particularly in something like books, actually, where you know you've got a wide range of range of interests and things that you're gonna really like and things that you're not gonna like. There it's you know, it's it's it's just critical to be able to sort of help the customer find what they want, to be able to actually tailor it to them rather than just offer a generic experience that's the same for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting to hear that. And I think there'll be people listening to this thinking to themselves that surely that kind of personalization and that loyalty and retention piece is a given, right? But actually, you know, as consumers and as a consumer myself, I actually think that there's a lot of companies that and some of these comp some comp in my opinion, some companies that you you think it would be a given as well, are actually quite devoid of it. And I and it and it amazes me because you know it it doesn't give me a lot of incentive or kind of um enthusiasm to to revisit and use that company again when quite frankly there's a lot of other choice out there. So it is an interesting point because I think that it it should be automatic, in my opinion, because that's what you're paying for and the the the the the experience that you get as a as a consumer, but I don't think it is. Um, and you know, you hear a lot of it people talking about it, but whether a company actually does it and you actually you see it and you feel it, I think are two different things. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

I don't know how you feel about that, but yeah, uh definitely, and I think the the the the bar will just actually keep going up, and I think now um you know again probably staying obvious, but in in in this in sort of the the AI age that that we're now in, yeah, I mean ever everything is just gonna become very intensely personalized, and uh and so if as as a brand you're not doing that, then you're gonna increasingly look sort of out of touch and and and yes and lose business, I think.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Yeah, absolutely. Um I don't think we're gonna get through this conversation without talking about AI because every you know is obviously it's it's it's everywhere. Um I'd like to I'd like to talk about that and cover that in some capacity. Just just taking a step back, just let's talk about World of Books because you've now come into this um role, I think uh it's 15 months now. About that, yeah. Yeah, roughly 15 months. And and it's your first um it's your first role as as a as a CPTO, yeah, uh, which is which is fantastic. I remember you talking to me as we often do uh about you know some options you have and you're considering a move, and we talked through them, and you were saying about this opportunity, and I it just stood out to me, and obviously you, which is why you're here and the rest is history in a sense, but you're you're you're making that history and evolving the business now in a in the capacity as a CPTO. And how you find you know, how is that? Because obviously it's bringing two things together, and also if you talk to a lot of product purists, they'll be like, Well, you know, product is product and technology is technology, they can't work, you know, they don't but obviously as business and time have evolved um we are seeing a lot more CPTO roles now. And I get asked a lot, is that just because the way that the industry's going, or is it because you know the the whole kind of um uh the whole kind of you know market sort of fell through the floor with COVID and then the ridiculous bounce back where you know people were hiring like the world was going to end, and there was a huge cost element involved and you know and saving when when the bubble sort of burst with you know in 22. Is that because you know they're trying to save money and bring technology and product together? What's your take on that? Because obviously your your role within World of Books, you know, i is obviously very unique and the business itself. I'm really keen to hear, I'm sure everyone else would, you know, your thoughts on that and how your role is is is now evolving.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for for me, um, taking this role is is is very full circle for me as well, sort of going back to my engineering roots as well. So, which is which one of the big appeals was was sort of to to bring that back back in a major way uh after having done lots lots of product roles. And um and but and also I've always just very passionately felt that um uh products and engineering are just two sides of the same coin. Uh, often say to people, you know, I think, well, product folk tend to have this focus on we building something that's valuable, that's right, good for our customers, good for our business. And while engineering folk tend to have a focus on you know building that technology in a way that's you know scalable, performant, accessible, secure, et cetera, et cetera. You know, as a product person, you've got to care about how the technology is built because your product is a technology, a technical product at the end of the day. And as a as an engineer, um, you know, you you don't want to be wasting your time building um technology that no one's gonna use or doesn't deliver any value. So they've they've always been for me two sides of the same coin. And so um so so for me, sort of to to hold a position that lets me bring them together and work really closely together is is a dream come true. Um but I think in in general in the in the industry and and the way things are going, um I you know, I think you know, you'll you'll I'm sure you'll still have CTO and CPO separation and and that will still still be a thing. And it's kind of like at the end of the day, it's got to be what works right for your organization and your company. Um, but I think you know you've you've the technology part of it has got to has always always had to be in service of delivering results and being there for for the customer, and and so sort of bringing them together is is very natural for me anyway. And I think uh particularly when we're now with what's happening with AI as we start to collapse uh the the time it takes to build code, and it you know it really is dramatically changing how we do engineering, and engineering is not going to be the bottleneck it was before, I think. That that sort of also lends itself very nicely to sort of thinking more around holistically end-to-end the whole products, the whole software development lifecycle from products through to design through to engineering, how that gets a lot closer and gets reimagined. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

That's really interesting to hear that perspective. And also now I I with World of Books as well, it's a business that um, you know, it's it's I think I you one of the things you said to me when you were considering it was that it's it's a business that you were really excited to be part of because it's it's really making a difference, that whole kind of re-commerce element and um you know the the the sort of it's almost like a tech for good element, right? Yeah, um and you know, recycling, you know, used, you know, big books that have been used and the whole kind of um uh the whole kind of economy around that. Um how's that how's that sort of panned out? I mean, you you know, 15 months in, there's a lot happened in that time. Yeah, um, and the business is changed. I know there was a uh an acquisition in that time as well. Yeah. Um and where do you, you know, how where do you find yourselves now and and and and how what's the what's that sort of um that that that journey looking like for for the next you know year or two, yeah, but two or three year journey, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean it's it's a brilliant business. Um and um uh you know, I just think the whole yeah, we you've met you've mentioned the sort of the recommerce sustainability part of it, which is is huge. But but also I think this this whole um really interesting kind of challenge of um dealing with you know the the vast history of books and you know, a where do you get those books from in the first place? Because you know, it's not like with with new books you can just call up a supplier with used books, we're sourcing them from consumers, from charities, etc. So that's that's a persistent perennial challenge at the heart of the business is just having the right books that people want to buy. But then also when you're selling the books as well, like well, how much should you charge to sell them? Because you know, you're not charging the RRP because it's a used book. So how do you decide that? Yeah, how do you pitch that, yeah? And then and then also all the all the additions as well. If you think of like some classics, like I don't know, 1984 or you know, Pride and Prejudice or something like this, it's it's thousands of editions, and so um you know, we'll we'll we'll stock a lot of them, if not all of them. And so like helping the customer find the edition that they want and navigate through all of that, and also could communicate the condition of it. Well, there's all these sort of other challenges. So there's the there's a lot in the foundation, the core of the business, that is actually quite challenging, I think. Um, and I think what what we're sort of, I think our story world of books is kind of like, you know, it's it's it's a bit of a sort of cliched word to use, but there is there's a tr we're sort of on a transformation path, really, where we're sort of trying to professionalize and make a lot of the foundations of of all of what I've just described a lot more robust, a lot more scalable, a lot more reliable. Um and but at the same time as well, um, we can't just do those sort of fundamentals really well. We also sort of got to bring innovations and think about um actually with with that brilliant basage of of this incredible catalogue of used books, you know, what other services, what what else can we offer our customers and where could that go in the future? Um so we have we have a lot of sort of there's a lot of interesting ideas kicking around the business around where where that could go. Um but it's yeah, it's it's super exciting.

SPEAKER_00 59:53

Yeah, no, absolutely. I I I can I can knowing you as well as I do, I can feel it and I can see it, you know, and uh you're excited about joining there for all the reasons that we talked through at the time. I can see it now, you know, I can feel it. And it's really interesting because when I reach out to people and engage people when I'm you know conducting a search, I always one of the things I always think about is is how people react when you you speak to them and you and you talk to them about that business and you mention that business. And I always I always gauge people's reactions and how engaged they are and the reactions and the kind of like the trend that develops when you know each people you speak, each person you speak to and how they come back to you on it. And it's there's just it's a brand that's becoming you know through just just general kind of uh evolution and the brand itself and the success and some of the an acquisition maybe, but but but just the work that that that's being done and that you you mentioned that whole kind of re-commerce sustainability piece. It's it's it's a brand that when I speak to people, just people get really excited about, which is which is you know really good to see. And I can only see that just continuing to evolve you know more positively as the months go by. Um let's let's talk about AI, just to rap to wrap to wrap this uh this pod up. Um I'm really keen to understand what AI sort of means to you, and also you know, in your own as as an individual, as a you know, as a senior um you know product and technology leader, but also for your business and also how you think it you know it's going to evolve and and the the impact positive or negative you think that's gonna have.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

Yeah, yeah. So I mean it's um it's crazy how fast it's it's all moving and changing, I think. And um I I think you can go. I felt at times like I'm a laggard in this to actually know we're doing quite well, to then oh no, we're falling behind again. It's sort of it's constantly it's what's possible is constantly changing. Um, and and it's just really surprising. I think you have to kind of almost resign yourself to you can't possibly keep up with all of it. It's just gonna, it's just happening. Yeah. Um but I'm I'm very kind of I'm excited by it because I think what it again, particularly what it's doing, I think there's this there's two lenses to it really. There's kind of like what it what it means to what you can offer your customers and how you can you know dramatically improve the experience for them and serve them better to then internally how how you work as well and how you can really, you know, again I sort of mentioned it earlier, but how how you know collapsing the the time it takes to to actually write code and also sort of get ideas out of the door to will totally totally change you know in product engineering the way we think about discovery, the way we think about how do we get proof points that something's gonna go or not go for us. Yeah. And I and I think that is, you know, I feel like we're really at just at the beginning of sort of getting our heads around that. Um and as and of course it's not just in we in our business, we're we're sort of seeing as well that you know it's not just product engineering, although that's obviously a natural home for a lot of this change, but every function in the business. Um there there are benefits to be had by by properly embracing AI. And we've already seen some sort of early examples where um departments outside of products and engineering have um either managed to sort of save some money on renewing some software costs because they can get clawed at it for them instead, or or they found sort of innovative ways to look at our data thanks to to what this tooling is is making possible.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I think the other thing is as well, because it's evolving so quickly, people in our in our industry have there's obviously an undercurrent of of of not fear but uncertainty because people don't as it's evolving so fast, people don't actually know what it means to them in terms of you know, is it gonna make their job defunct? Is it gonna be able to completely take over what they do? I think the reality is becoming clear that that's that's not the case broadly speaking, but there's obviously it's a huge enabler, and there's a lot that it can bring, it's for speed, particularly when businesses are scaling quickly and all the elements of that as well. But but actually it it what I'm understanding from a lot of people that I speak to is that you know human beings and AI can work in harmony and can find that sort of you know that that that sort of blend. Um, you know, but it but it it has it's having an unbelievably um uh you know a lot well alarming but but amazing impact on a lot of things that people are doing and businesses.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

Yeah, yeah. So I I think you know, I mean um I think roles roles are changing and uh and I think particularly as as you get AI to to to be sort of more autonomous and where humans are more directing rather than actually doing the work and and reviewing things by exception and trusting that the AI is is actually delivering a good result for whatever the process is, I think that will become more and more common. So I think I think you've gotta you have you have to embrace that working in in particularly in tech, but but in any role, I think you just have to embrace that because that's happening and you can't stop that from happening. So it's it's here. Yeah. But I think that the thing is just roles will will change quite a lot. And I think some I I think it will mean that some roles just just don't exist anymore, but there'll be brand new roles as well that that are there to to make that work. And um and it and and that that will definitely be unsettling, and I think it will really depend you know on this the size of the organization you're in and the type of work it's in and around how how disruptive that is, but um but yeah, guaranteed think things uh role roles will definitely change dramatically.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Yeah, no doubt. Well, look, it'll be really interesting to see. I'm sure we're all kind of very sort of uh poised to see how it evolves and what that means, but it it's exciting and uh it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Um, Louis, thank you so much. Uh as always, it's an absolute pleasure. Uh, really appreciate you making the time, and also I really appreciate you, I'm sure everyone will, how open you've been about your journey and uh how insightful you've been because I'm sure you know people will take a lot from that. It's it's it's inspirational, it's aspirational, and I think there's a there's a lot of uh elements of it that people will look at and think, you know, I I'm a I'm a product manager just coming in. You know, that's there's a journey that I can definitely do, and I can understand why. And it's it's it's unbelievably uh motivating. So um thank you for doing that and taking the time. I really appreciate it. It's great to spend some time with you as always.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:22

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me on, Tony. It's really great to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

Cheers, Lewis, thanks, mate. Cheers.