SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm watching YouTube videos in this channel, I just feel like you're like on the pulse. Otherwise, you know, next week it's it's a comment. What excites me is the idea of how fast you can build. Yeah. I've built a little prototype, like an electrical web application. Prototyping is wild. You just have to go through a UX designer thing like you can go and prototype in a matter of minutes. We're not even doing PIVs anymore. We're going straight to prototyping. The old process just doesn't even exist. It can't exist anything in this day and age. The relationship between engineering and product is evolving and changing massively. We're now having to rebuild and redefine our entire operating model with engineering from a product perspective because it's evolved that much.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Wow. Welcome back to the On the Pulse podcast. My name is Tony Molcock, the co-founder of Pulse Group. Today, on the Pulse, we're joined by Blake Mosley. Blake is the VP of product at Joule, where he's helping shape how some of the world's most exciting brands think about advocacy, growth, and community in the age of AI. With over a decade of experience across products, technology and digital strategy, Blake has built his career at the intersection of agency products working at scale across global organizations before making the move into high growth startup environments. In this episode, we're going to explore the journey, the move from agency into startup, and why some of the best product talent is now coming from that world. Blake, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Thank you for having me, mate.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

How are you feeling? Natural. I I've obviously only done a few and I'm still in the exact I'm still in the exact same zone, trust me. Um look, it's great to have you here. Absolute pleasure. Thank you for doing it. Thank you. Um there's a lot to talk about. Um, and I think one of the kind of things that sort of screams out is obviously we want to talk about your journey because it's been a it's been a really fantastic journey so far, and there's a lot to go. But it'd be really good to sort of get into the nuts and bolts of that. But also, like I think what's even more interesting is is that journey transitioning from Oz, you know, over to here. So I think it would be really good to sort of hear about the journey, you know, up until that point where you made, you know, a massive change in your life, right? Massive transition. Um, and then I think at some point we'll talk about you know how that difference is between you know technology, you know, that industry in Australia and then here. So tell us a bit about the about the journey so far. It'd be great to hear about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

It's been a wild journey. I've uh up until recently been in agency world almost my entire career. So I um started in humble beginnings in in ad operations for IPG Media Brands. Um loved that at the time and thought that I was going to do that for the rest of my career, which now in hindsight is just a bit wild to think about. Um and then very quickly kind of scaled up and excelled uh across the agency ecosystem, but always very much focused on the the product and the innovation side of the of the agency. So always worked for a specialty agency within the group. Okay. So worked for a company called Ansible, which was the mobile division of IPG Media Brands. And at the time we developed AR and VR uh, you know, gamification experiences for brands for the likes of Hyundai. Um and back then, I mean that was in 20 god, 20, I want to say 2015, you know, that was 11 years. Time flies, right? God man, I was about to swear and go, God, I'm getting old. Um but yeah, we were building really cool stuff back then. Um and that was before we, you know, Meta changed their name to Meta, uh, before you know the whole metaverse was coming in and going to be this big thing. It was much before then. So always put, I mean, name of the podcast, always had my finger on the pulse, uh, always in terms of like innovation and and change. And then I had a small stint, wanted to challenge myself uh and move into something that I've always felt really uncomfortable with, but it's not a natural thing for me, which is sales. So I had a short stint as a commercial director for a startup, and that was my first dabble in the startup world. Um, but in a satellite office in Australia and Sydney.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

How different was that? How did that feel?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Like mate, it was it was like day and night. It it was interesting. I think more of that change for me was going from big agency to small startup, particularly a satellite office, was even probably more challenging because you don't have uh the the direct experience or direct touch points as you would if you were in HQ. So yeah, it was um it was challenging for the change in from agency to to startup, but also just from even just being from a startup in a satellite office is even more challenging in itself. Um so I did that for for a short period of time um and actually got uh got approached by one of my old CEOs over to a new agency at WPP that he was the CEO for. Okay. Um and moved over to with him uh into production. So a whole new world on top of everything I've always done. Okay, but very much focused again on driving the innovation in the agency. So it's where I started as a strategy director, but ultimately it was around how do we uh capitalise on data to personalize experiences for uh for consumers at scale, so really innovation and production, um, and then made massive strides there. I was there for almost maybe 12, 18 months, I think it was, and uh was lucky enough. I built something in Sydney in Australia, which is still classified as a satellite office, but a big satellite office, if anything. And Australia, I think in agency world, is interestingly a place where you can make and break things. Like you get to build, you're almost like the startup of the holding group. Um things move really fast. You have to be really measured in your approach, you can't just kind of uh throw cash wherever you'd like because it is a smaller office, yeah. But the innovation is really key to to the the region. Uh so we built my CEO and I built something together which is uh which was later known as the addressable content practice, which was launched globally for WPP. It was a partnership between us Hogarth and WPP, uh sorry, and Group M to be able to deliver addressable or personalised content at scale.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Um because that launched globally, I had the opportunity to then um you know get on a plane and move over to the UK, the sunny UK.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, uh yeah, well mate, yeah, exactly. The beautiful how fooled you were. Yeah, exactly. Um let's just pause that because we're gonna because that's a good that's a decent segue at some point into that. Because I know we're gonna I know we're gonna talk about that, and I'm really interested to hear hear about that sort of journey as as to you know and where we find ourselves sitting here talking today. What do you think was kind of the key in those early parts? What was the catalyst that kind of accelerated your career? Because you there's there's a lot of things that you've done, and a lot of the focus obviously has been within that agency world, which you know I'm pretty familiar with. I don't know as sort of deeply as you, but you know, I've I've worked with the you know the WPPs, the you know, the group M's, the you know, the the IPG media brands, big companies like Hogarth, but I you know pr sort of done bits and pieces in different areas of of of of of hiring. But where what what do you think that thinking back on that time, you know, in Australia, in agency, kind of you know, real vibrant cut and thrust um world that you were in, what what was the real bit that kind of just really kicked things on for you? Can you can you remember that? Is it a standout moment?

SPEAKER_00 7:27

I will never forget, and if she ever watches this, she'll know exactly who I'm talking about. I my very first manager when I was an ad hoc left such an imprint on me to the point of leadership but also management, but also just dealing with hard conversations and how to best deal with those, but also to know how to manage up at the same time. Um the the imprint that she left has has very much lasted until where I am right now. Really? Just in terms of my leadership style, in terms of how I approach uh, you know, just management of my team, uh, which you know I really try and strive to have more of an influence than it is, you know, leadership, like more the dictatorship. It's you know, really trying to influence the team to the greater good. Um but uh you know, if I tell talk selfishly about myself, I think the difference I think the thing that's helped me get to where I am is my ability, my resilience, but my ability to be able to really find the solution in the problem.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

It's been a massive thing for me. Like I'm uh I was having a conversation with my CEO yes yesterday, and you know, we were having a laugh saying I'm I'm like a I'm a fixer and I'm builder.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

You know, I I'm able to identify opportunities, but then I'm also able to fix things that aren't working, and that's that's a skill, that's a real skill. Yeah, and agencies lean into that, right? And and what I'm finding is startups as well, because you're able to come in and fix what's broken but help move the business to a new direction forward.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Interesting. And do you think that that sort of element, I know we're going to talk about this later, but just just just for the purpose of this now, do you think that that element of um you know working in agencies, you know, multiple uh brands and clients that you're working with at pace under pressure? Do you think that's been a really good foundation for you to sort of really thrive in this sort of more senior leadership part of your course?

SPEAKER_00 9:23

A hundred percent. You know, the agency agencies teach you so many good soft skills that you don't even prepare prepare yourself for. Uh, you know, the the amount of clients that you're working on and the pressure that you are under to deliver uh is nothing a business can try and train you for. And I, you know, that's why we right now, and I know we'll get to this, but that's why I'm looking for agency people to join the startup because they can deal, they can work under pressure, they know how to deal with many different priorities coming at them at a million miles an hour, they know how to prioritize, yeah. Um, they know how to know how know how to navigate when you know a client's quite demanding. Um so I definitely I my my early days, or not even my early days, uh you know, it's up until recently, has really set me up to be able to deal with you know those complexities of you know running a business or you know, even managing or working with many different types of clients. I think it's it's interesting as well because it allows you to um be agile in the way that you approach different clients because agencies, you're not just working in one category generally, you're working on many different brands from many different categories. So you kind of have to be able to adapt really quickly to different brands and different needs. You know, you're not gonna always work on fashion, you're not gonna always work on beauty, you're gonna be working on automotive, or you're gonna be working on CBG, but you may work on them all together at the same time, and so be able to lift and kind of be a chameleon almost and lots of different people and personalities within that, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:57

That you you're having to adapt to. And some people you could, you know, it it's like anything, isn't it? Like you could you could say the same thing, you know, in a different tone, and it would be received very differently. Yeah. So it's but also like when you're working with different clients who, you know, have got different deadlines and kind of expectations and yeah, the way that you, you know, and certain people that have got certain demands and the way that they are. That must be it must teach you some real skills in that because it because you're just thrown from one thing to the next and you've just got to think on your feet and pick things up quickly.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

I think one one of the key things that taught me was not to take things personally.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

I I think you know, working with different clients, it's very easy sometimes to read the room incorrectly. Um so one of the things I learned very early on in my career is be able to almost have I've got a Blake that's professional Blake, and I've got a personal Blake. And I'm very I've trained myself really hard to be able to separate the two. So if if something happens at work that maybe feel quite personal, I can leave it at the room.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

You you can completely quarterise that. It's like, yeah, don't take it on.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Yeah, you know, that's unlike this is not about me actually in this situation.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

So yeah, it might feel like it, but it's not. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

And it's very easy to kind of see above and not get too emotional about it, and then be able to then decide what your best next move is or uh approach. Um, so I definitely think in terms of uh, you know, that has has been a massive skill that you I've kind of had to learn. Um, you know, I didn't no choice but then the necessity of having to work with so many different clients with different personalities with different demands, yeah. Some more than others.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Because it it must be that is a real art, by the way, because I I've I've it's something that I've really sort of challenged myself to get better at, actually, because it the the the sort of separation is it's it's difficult sometimes because when you're really passionate about something and you know within your working life, you know, same in your personal life, it's you you sort of get attached to it, don't you? But it's it's it's it's that kind of skill and that art to sort of be attached to it to a point, but then realise that actually, you know, some of the things you're saying, or people are sort of you know challenging your ideas and your innovation. That you know, I would rather someone be really innovative and come at me with ideas all the time and you can chuck a bit of water on them and sort of dampen them down a little bit rather than not having that. You know, I'd rather that sort of that drive and that desire. And and also like I I want people kind of bringing ideas to me and challenging me as well as a as a as a business leader, right? So I think it's it's but that's part of your sort of your journey, isn't it, as a as a as a as a person, as a human, as a as a as a leader. Um you're welcoming people to give you ideas and push you.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

It's interesting, like it's an interesting concept. You think about you're almost opening the door for people to have uh you know, you you're having to be very vulnerable and allowing people to have opinions of the work, yeah. Which I think is actually, you know, it's interesting. I've never thought of it like that, where it's actually quite an interesting state that you have to be continuously in, where you you're opening yourself up for uh other people's opinions, like continuously. You're on the stage.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Listen, I we've we've got a a very good CPTO friend of mine who uh is is coming on uh to one of the episodes. Uh he's I've known him for 15 years, I've built a number of teams for him. Lovely, lovely guy. I've got a uh uh we're about to launch a uh a hire for him at the moment, product director, and one of the things he said to me was he said, I want this person to have my job. That's the first thing he said to me.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

That's a proper leader, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Proper leader, yeah. And but but actually to to say that some people would say, Yeah, but you know, you know each other really well, and he's gonna say that. That's just the kind of guy he is, you know. The the mindset that he has when he sets a hire in his mind that he's you know signed off and he's clear that that's the hire he needs to make. He's like, It's this this actual position of this hire is is that it's someone that you know will be his successor. So it, you know, and it is, it's it's about vulnerability, and it's also about people, you know. I I've always said, you know, I and anyone that sort of knows me that's worked with me and for me, I've always I want people to push me all the time. I want people to come in to come into me with ideas. You know, there's gonna be people in the room, you know, that have got much better ideas than me.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

But that's that's what you should be hiring for. Because you need to be able to supplement your your I mean, weaknesses is the wrong word, but I'm not looking for, but your your gaps, right? Yeah, that's what a true leader should be doing, is you're hiring the people around you to make you better and to make the team better. I think a lot of you know, I I've seen and I've seen this firsthand where you have a leader uh come into a role and they're threatened by the team around them. You know, that's not good for anything. No, not for the business, not for morale, not for the team members. Yeah, you know, like the way that I personally like to hire is I like to hire specifically uh, you know, for the gaps that I have because collectively us as a team can deliver really good stuff that way.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

It's about but it's like anything, isn't it? It's about bl it's about a balance. It's about balance and a blend, a good blend of skills that come together, different strengths from different people, right? And those strengths make up for other people's maybe weaknesses or you know, maybe maybe maybe sort of just I suppose gaps in skills, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:03

And I mean it's interesting you say that because it was that was a uh I guess a something I had to learn on again early on my in my management career was not everyone can be like me. You know, and so trying to always hire and find someone that is really passionate, that wants to go above and beyond all the time and wants to deliver more than what's required, you know, that's not how everyone's makeup.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

And that's not real life either.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Correct. And you've got to you've sometimes got to take a step backwards and go. Also, first impressions aren't always the case. Like when you interview someone, you probably know this more than anyone. The first like first interview sometimes is shocking because they're just nervous. So it's being able to see under that hood and see the you know the potential in somebody. Um, but also that it's not always they're not gonna always be what you you're the perfect makeup. They're gonna you need to bring a different blend of uh different skills together to deliver value, really.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah, I think I think there's always I think anyone that's ambitious and and wants to always continuously develop and and you know advance their career as and do as well as they can, there's always gonna have that mindset of um high expectations, um, you know, dri a driven, a driven person, a driven individual, high expectations of themselves and others around them. But it's about that balance of those expectations and actually how realistic those expectations are because you've got to get that right, and also you've got to be able to, as a leader, you know, you know this, you've got to be able to um be comfortable of like relinquishing responsibility, right? And it that's that that is really difficult because it's really difficult, and that is linked to expectations because you know if you do something, you have it done a certain way, but you're never gonna be able to do everything, and you know, I'm volume over quality is is a big challenge for a lot of people. That sort of quality element, you know, I don't care what anyone says, as soon as you bring volume into stuff, it substitutes quality. So, you know, in order to get around that, it's bringing in those people that can make a difference, and you know, you know, we've got this, you know, with with our business now, we're 19 months old today, actually, right? So, yeah, right, and but we're we're bringing people in that yeah, we know that we trust that some of the people that we people we know, but but again, it's that kind of whole element of like trust, autonomy, you know, being able to sort of give something to someone and know they're gonna run with it and do it just as well as you, and that's it's that that's the really hard bit. And I think something tr trust is massive, right? It's huge. But something you mentioned earlier, which really kind of like struck a chord with me, is about you know, I I said what was the changing point for you, turning point, and you said about you know, someone that you you managed, and you know, she's watching this, she'll know who it is. I think like people that are in leadership positions have been in the industry or they're it's been yeah, quite a you know, a decent amount of way into their career, will always have someone that they look back on and think that person, they might not necessarily have been a turning point, but they were an absolute inspirational, they were a real kind of um catalyst for my you know, sort of laying some foundations about how I lead and how I've you know been effective as a leader. I had exactly the same thing, you know. I I remember my first job in recruitment. Um, I wanted to work for one of the big agencies, you know, the whole kind of buzz of London and the training element and stuff like that. And I remember my managing consultant, and I'd be amazed if he sees this or is watching this because basically he um his name was Julian Downs, he was a great guy, and he he he was he was just very he he was very firm, he was very fair, but he was he had good humility, you know, but he was he had he had exceptional emotional intelligence and he read he could read a room and you know the stuff I learned from him about you know fairness, consistency, and just you know, really throwing himself into everything with absolute passion and giving it everything, but also you know, he he he could have a laugh, right? But and you you you wanted to work for him, and I mean not long after I left, I think him and his twin brother like went off and like moved to the Caribbean and stuff building yachts and stuff like some crazy stuff like this, right? But he was someone that really inspired me. So it's just it's interesting how yeah, these sort of journeys that I think at the time these people won't even realise the positive effect they have on people.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

But you you mentioned one, I you know it's I mean, I hope everyone in their career has someone like that, you know. I think they should do, yeah. Yeah, because it having a good leader that inspires you and helps you grow, but also forms you into the person that you become as a as your own leader, I think is quite a quite a cool thing to reflect on.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Um yeah, it's quite it's quite cool. I've had a couple of those in my career, but obviously one more notable than than most. Um yeah, it's a it's uh and I hope one I hope that I'm that leader for people as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

You know, absolutely no doubt. Let's um let's talk about the the the the sort of that that moment when you are you know all of this stuff that's kind of building up to um you know I've I've got to move to the UK. It might not have been that it certainly wasn't the weather that made you feel like that. I moved at the worst time of the year as well. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

When what's October like an idiot?

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

So the clocks go forward, and I thought to myself, what have I done? What am I doing here?

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Oh, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

I mean it's four o'clock darkness, mate. The earliest it gets dark in Sydney is 5 30 pm.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah, I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Cheering.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah, so that was an interesting time to go. At least you joined when it was like, you know, you know it's not gonna get much better than this, as in like for the next few months, but sorry, as in you know it's gonna get better. Oh yeah, like as in like actually that this is probably the worst it's gonna get. Or kind of well, actually, it's not because December and January is absolutely shocking.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

No, I thought that was a breeze compared to October. October, I don't know. What October to this day is my worst month every year.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah, yeah. I I've I've got to say it's not because it's my birthday month, but but I know exactly what you mean. Like clots going back and all the stuff around it, it's yeah, but also you've come from like essentially like well, it's kind of uh it's spring going into summer, right? It does. Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like, yeah. And I've but but so that moment, when did you have the moment where you thought, you know what, I've I've had a I've had a really good kind of phase of my career here. I want to challenge myself, you know. Some people could go, oh, I'm gonna stay here, I'm gonna go to that. I'm gonna look to kind of progress that next level. You obviously thought differently and thought, well, I'm gonna do, you know, I'm gonna go somewhere else, different geography. How how did that happen? How did it come back?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Mate, I was always very hungry to work for HQ. Like no matter what agency group I was part of, that was always my on my bucket list. I was always on my this is one of my top goals to try and achieve in my career. So I I will never forget back at IPG Media Brands when I worked for Ansible, the mobile innovation agency. We it was at the time when all of the Australian leaders uh got promoted to HQ in New York. Right. And I was all I was craving to be one of those guys that was going to be moved over to HQ and work across you know global accounts. I was young at that point, you know. I was I I had just started my career, I think I was maybe 22, 23. And so I was starry-eyed, and that for me was exciting, and I I wanted to be a part of that. And that was but then it kind of imprinted my brain that that's always what I wanted to do, which was to work at HQ. And and to that point, it almost feels like it was like that I made it moment. I I I'm not sure, like, but I I but I definitely when I moved here, for example, and I did move to the global role in the global HQ, I thought to myself, shit, what do I do now? I've reached my my top, my my peak. So young as well. Peak for myself, yeah. So I was and I had that moment where I'm like, oh my god, what is it that I do now? And I yeah kind of questioned that. But it's uh yeah, going back to you to your question, it was it was it was a no-brainer for me when I was offered the opportunity to move over, to, to launch what I had built in Sydney, but launch it globally, I I jumped at the chance. It was not even something that I even um it wasn't even something I questioned.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

And was it and was it when you thought thought early in your career about you know bit doing international working, you know, to broaden your horizons and you know your experience, was it all I don't know you said that it would be probably be driven by the agency that you were with, but did you have this kind of itch that you needed to scratch about the UK or would it have been New York or would it have been because you mentioned New York, but it was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I came in in 2019, I had a trip to Europe and I had this uh for some reason I wasn't able to align dates uh in the UK with some friends. So I ended up doing a week in London by myself in 2019, right? Um, and I fell in love with the city, right? And I was by myself in London, which can be really daunting for some people. Yeah, never been here before? Never uh I no, been once, but it was like a short stint, like two darts.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

But yeah, but you were on your own.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

And I was on my own, and I made I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

What did you do? Just literally classic tourist stuff.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Everything you can think of that's a tourist adventure um was what I did, and it was honestly one of the best weeks I've had in my entire life. Brilliant. Um, and I fell in love with with the city, and I just thought to myself, you know what, London's it. And at that point, I I didn't even know at that point, like I hadn't even um started working for WPP at that point, so I didn't have anywhere aligned that was HQ in London. Oh, okay. So it was just kind of stuck in my head that this is where I want to go. And it wasn't what drew me to WPP, it was an added bonus that it was, you know, part of HQ was in London. Um, so when I got the opportunity to move over, I yeah, it was I remember I remember it very vividly. I ended up doing, I didn't tell you this, but I ended up doing the global role in Sydney for like six months before moving over. So I was working on like 1 p.m. until like one a.m. Sydney hours to try and talk. Yeah, it was good though. It was night, like you know, I made the most out of it because it was summer in Australia, so I was cheering out of the days to myself. Um, but yeah, it was it was it was an interesting time. I rem remember it like it was yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah, I it's as soon as you say stuff like that, like trying to do a global role in Sydney, it makes me think about um one of my very good recruitment buddies and uh a very good cycling buddy of mine as well. He'll know who he'll know who he is when I'm talking about this. But he's from Melbourne and uh he recruit he recruits he's based here. Uh he's had a little boy now, but he he he'll go home to Melbourne and see his folks, but he'll do UK hours when he's over there, he'll do like two or three weeks to do UK hours in Melbourne. And you know, he's just I don't know how he does it, he's absolutely absolutely true.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Well me, that's the awesome thing about where I am now. They don't care where you are. Yeah, like I could be doing I could go home now and and I mean I don't know how if my CEO would love this, but I could go home and do my job from there and they would be, you know, completely fine with it. It's the way the business has been built, which is you know, I think such an attraction for talent in market, but it's um for some someone like me to have that flexibility is just awesome.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

But uh it is, and I but that's also the the the world, you know, our digital technology space obviously COVID's changed quite a lot of things as well, like the way people you know live and work. There's a lot of people that I know, you know, kind of product directors, VPs, good friends of mine that have kind of moved out of London. Um, you know, I we I was talking to someone earlier. I don't, you know, I come in two days a week now, as you know. I used to be in for like 20 years. Can't remember 18 years five days a week. I mean, I don't think you know I could ever go back to that, you know, it just because we've just got used to it now, and it's it's it's crazy, isn't it? I mean, COVID was six years ago, like a couple weeks ago. I mean, where's that time gone? Yeah, but it's it's changed, it's changed a lot. But I also think that you know, startup businesses with you know, a kind of like flexible working, agile focus, you know, you get more out of your teams and you need that to attract the right kind of people as well, right? And it's an environment of trust and autonomy and well, I think that's an important thing you just said, trust, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:37

I think that's something that we've built the whole business around. Um, and Paul, my CEO, is has done that, you know, with the whole idea is you have really bloody good people around you that you trust that are high performers, and that's why the business is is as successful as it is.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

And without that trust, you can't you can't do even the hybrid working, really, can you? I just yeah, it's I think it's an important factor.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah, and and Ricky and I are, you know, my business partner uh adopt and and believe in exactly the same method and culture, you know. You you've you've got to be, I think we said it earlier, but that kind of trust and that kind of autonomy, I I really do believe because we've seen it, you know, time and time again, that that's how you get the best out of people and people respect you and they want they want to work for you, and you know, you you give them that that sort of that that freedom to do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

That's where the best work happens. If you can try if you can trust like if if the trust is there and the person's a high performer, you know, you just you I've seen it work in the best way it possibly can in terms of just delivery and value to the business, but also team culture.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, which is which is huge, right? And that's that's you know, I've always said people by people, people people, people make a brand and they make that culture, and that's you know, it's driven by everyone, it's not just driven by people at the top, right? And then people at leadership level, it's people form, you know, every person forms part of that culture and how that culture evolves, right? And um, I'm really interested to understand. I know we talked about this in the sort of you know, doing some kind of uh like initial scoping out and prep for this, but I'm really interested to understand the difference, you know, the change. You know what's coming, you know what questions coming here. But like I've got to be careful, yeah. Well, there is that, but but obviously I think like people one of the things that I love about London is is like you know, it that the it's so cosmopolitan, it's you know, it's multicultural. We've got unbelievable people coming in from all corners of of the world, like you know, uh injecting skills, you know, culture into our into our companies, into our industries. You know, you've come from Australia. I mean, obviously it's a long way away, but there's you know, I I was fortunate enough to to to to spend quite you know a bit of time there when I was young and my dad lived there, and uh, I've got some you know loads and loads of friends in ours as well. It in some ways, like there's there's there's quite a lot of similarities, but I think on the on the on the tech side, like digital technology, it's it's quite different. And I know that you said you know it was a real adaptation, so I'm really like interested to understand in a little bit more detail like what that what that is and how much you've had to adapt and and why you're gonna get me in trouble, mate.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Um, I think it's a couple of things. I've I was reflecting about the question because we had obviously spoken about it prior. Um I think it was a couple of things. I came over from a satellite office to HQ, right? And I think it just naturally has more red tape. Yeah, um, you know, I've been very fortunate enough in the teams I've worked in, it's always felt like very much like the startup version of that business. So we've always been able to be really scrappy and innovative and and how we operate. Um, but you know, I you know, I'm I've I've been called um a couple many, many things in my career, but one of them that's kind of stuck with me, which I can't um I can't deny, it's you know, I can be a bit of a bulldog. Yeah. Um and and by that it's you know, I like to get, can I swear, get shit done.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

You've already sworn months already, mate. You've set the tone now, so it's fine, yeah. Yeah, it's normally me, by the way, but I've been quite reserved, so yeah, you do it for a week.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Just to just to get shit done. You know, that's that's how I like to operate. Um so coming here, um I I how do I say it pragmatically? It was it was difficult. I stepped on a few toes when I first got here, where I think the British way British culture is uh a little bit more reserves the wrong word, but a a little bit um not as direct. Not as direct. And I think my approach was the the thing I had to learn, not the hard way, thank God, but what I had to learn was you know, there's a there's a different, there's an art form to to working with again a different type of uh group of people.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Uh British people don't always say what they mean.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

It's uh yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna hold back. Um they don't. I think sometimes they're really overly polite, and unfortunately, what I see with that is it gets in the way of identifying what the real challenges are and then fixing those challenges. Because for me, I'm like, if it's not working, let's call it what it is and let's then fix it together. Let's find a solution. But if we keep tiptoeing around the problem, we're just never gonna get to a place that it allows us to move quickly, but also solve what's not working. Yeah, and that's what I found really difficult coming here. Yeah, it's that navigating that it's the tiptoeing around a problem where I'm like, you know what, let's just call it what it is. It it's screwed.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yeah, it's yeah, it's not right, this is what we need to do. Correct. Let's not be offended, let's let's let's call it straight. Do you know one of the things that always uh always makes me laugh, you know, all these years into my life? This is not a business related thing, but this will kind of sum up my, you know, as a as a as a Brit, this will sum up how I kind of think about it and the way that we are. You know, you're walking along, right, and you're on your phone and you're not paying attention, and some innocent person is just walking along, it's your fault, you know, and and and you smack into someone, the first thing that person says, Oh, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, right? So sorry. Yeah, right? So sorry. It's a classic brit thing to do, and it's like, you know, or you know, and queuing, like standing in a queue, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Oh, you guys love a cue here.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Love a cue. Love a cue. Love a cue, right? So there's all this kind of stuff. So, like, when like you know, when this Aussie arrives, is like like really straight talking and like used to that kind of culture all his life, it's like, oh my god, like, okay, how do I it must be like I'm in a new country, like I'm in a you know, the the way the business works is you know, I'm still in the same company, but is I've got to I've got to approach this differently, and some of the language and some of the tone, and it must be like it was like re-getting my training wheels back on, if I'm honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

It was uh yeah, it was it was like okay, well, it was a lot of self-reflection when I first got here. I it was almost having to train the trainer again. Like it was going through the whole thing of going, how do I navigate, how do I influence to still get what I need without you know being such uh such a bulldog? Um which was you know, it was interesting. It would I uh thankfully nothing. Um there was no kind of pivotal moment where I had to go, oh shit, I have to fix this because I've done something you know too far the one way. But it was very much um taking a step back. I I I did a lot, uh you know, I did a lot more uh bird's eye view watching uh rather self-reflection, but being able to review that from a different perspective, more listening than trying to come in so hard. Yeah, um, and that's kind of what what made me notice is you know, just the way that people operate here is just so different. Yeah, um, and I know people probably back home if they're listening to this will think, what the hell are you talking about? Um, but until you're here, you just don't realize like how different little nuances of the cultures are, yeah. Like it's just the little nuances. Um, but it's made me when I go back home now, Tony. I'm like, man, this place is small, like city feels small, and things feel very different now. Like, I it's interesting how quick you can adapt to somewhere. Like now, now I'm I've still got the bulldog nature in me, but it's very toned down to what it is.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

I was gonna ask you about that because when you go home, because it's you to your point, like you know, you're used to get you know, you how how quickly you get used to somewhere. Do you like go home and like someone will be a bit direct with you, and you're a bit like, you know, or or is it just still there?

SPEAKER_00 35:18

My parents think I've become posh, which I've I've I've called bullshit on. But like, thank you. Um I I think they've realized they feel like I've become maybe a little bit, in their words, softer than what I used to be. Um, but I don't think I have. It's just they're what the way that they see the difference in me now. But it I uh yeah, I I definitely I'm more accustomed for a queue now than I used to be.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

I bet.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, well, if you and a coffee shop chain.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

You guys love a coffee shop chain. We we do, we do, although you know, there's there's loads of these sort of like independent boot, you know, sort of boot, I say boutiquey, but you know, these little local coffee shops open up. But yeah, that is true. Then they then they get bought because they're amazing and all that kind of stuff. But but it's interesting that you say about the kind of um soft one of my dad's best friends, um, who uh sadly's not with us anymore, but basically he there's there's an irony in what I'm about to say. He was born here, he was in he's he he was English, right? But he moved to Australia, uh, you know, met someone, married, had kids, and him and my dad, you know, they worked in the bank together here in London, they were friends for like you know 60 years. He he used to say, Oh, you know, poms are soft. I'm thinking, You are a pom. You are a pom. You are a pom. But he used to say, and he just used to say that it was so interesting, like going out there and like seeing the cultural differences. And I mean, obviously you loved it, right? You he married and he lived his three quarters of his life out there. But it is interesting, and it's interesting how that adaptation has really come about, and you know, you just you know, you just kind of like you just kind of fall into it and you just adapt. And well, you either do or you don't, right? And if you don't adapt, you don't you don't succeed, do you? And you you've obviously you've clearly done that, you've embraced it.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Well, it's interesting, like even on the flip side, right? Like you've got I feel like you've got so many Brits in Australia, so I I always wonder how they must I mean they do the opposite, they do the flip side of that.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Do you know what? I th I I think it depends on what they do for a living, I have to say, because I think if and I this is I've just a few of my friends in the recruitment industry, but also like within just technology, you know, uh friends in product product managers that have gone out there, they've always said that you know the technology uh world out there is a bit behind. Um and I'm I'm probably being a bit diplomatic, but but that that's what they've said. I mean they've they've probably said it a little bit stronger than that, but but then you know, other people, other friends of ours have gone out there to you know, uh they're they're tradespeople, you know, they go out there to uh a friend of ours, a carpenter, has gone out there and building and stuff, and they're they're it's just a totally different environment. Yeah, very, very different. But I think in the tech world there's but I also think people go out there and they think, you know what, it's it's a it's quite behind, but they see that as a challenge because they sort of want to help like bring that market, you know. I'm not saying they're gonna do it overnight and you know align it with the UK, but they're they're definitely um saying that there's it that they love the challenge and they can see it, you know, really catching up. So I think you know it there's different challenges either way, right? Um let let's talk about um let's talk about the the the transition from we talked about from there from Oz to here. Yeah not only that you've then done that. I mean, but you don't think you don't think you buy Oz, do you? You you've done that, but then you've you've gone from someone that is out and out agency, as we had we sort of talked about, touched on at the start, but you've gone from out and out agency into the cut and thrust and the magnification of a of a tech startup, right? Which is which is big. It's you know, I I've worked with tech startups for years, you know, you know, and all the the the the spotlight, you know, the the VCs, the private equities, there, the pressure, yeah, the the the return on the investment, you know, the spotlight. So, you know, you're in this situation now. Like, tell us about that, the the difference and the and yeah, all the all the elements of that transition.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Well, mate, I've been really lucky in my career that I've always worked, kind of what I've alluded to is always in the startup of the agency, right? So I've always kind of been in that innovation hub, that startup. So we've always had our own PL, which has been more scrutinized than your normal agency PL, or you know, your resources are uh much um you know leaner than you would in your bigger agency. So I luckily enough had a lot of those kind of dynamics built into the way that I operate. So transitioning over um over to Joule, which is where I'm at now, is um it wasn't as challenging as moving to the UK. Uh uh, if anything, um it felt very much uh, you know, Jules at an infl infliction point in their um their journey or maturity, um, and that is the you know, scaling up and and becoming more potentially like an agency. Like what we're finding at Joule is that we're hiring more and more people from an agency background because we find that that's kind of the culture that we want to inhibit, and those are the types of talent that you know do do really well at Joule. So I've been really lucky and fortunate enough. Uh Joule uh is in a really good position, both from a market perspective, uh, but also, you know, financial cash flow perspective for us at the moment. You know, we you know, we don't have those constraints. Like we I can actually go and do really good work and I'm empowered to do that because we have the right resources to do so.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Um and we are, you know, it's that's that's the versatility and agility of a of a smaller company without well that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

I've been here for six months, only six months, and be able to build a whole new department within that six months, plus run my existing department. Like so being given the autonomy, but also the trust and the empowerment to do like my job but more than as well, yeah, is has been the biggest thing that I'm like, wow, how have I not done this sooner? Um, I thought that I had that in agency life, but coming here, the amount of stuff that you can get done in such a short period of time, it's like the perfect environment for me and my my personality because I can thrive and really, as I kind of said before, get shit done quite quickly.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Yeah, and it's quite suit is perfectly suited to you. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Yeah, 100%. So that difficulty what uh you know that transition period wasn't so difficult. Uh and what I think has been my benefit from my agency world is being able to deal with competing priorities, and that's what the agency world has really kind of set me up for. Because in startups, you've still you've got that. You've got you've got the CEO, the CFO, you've got, you know, um, you get your SLT, they all have different views of where the business needs to go because it is still so young, you know. So trying to uh filter out those different priorities and and understand the direction you need to take your department in is is a craft in itself.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And as you say, I think some people would like if they worked sort of almost like in a startup kind of environment within a bigger agency, it's a great insight, but it doesn't always sort of set people up, everyone up for that kind of next journey within a startup, because obviously then when you move to a tech startup itself, which is client side, it's you know it can be quite different. I mean the environment's still different, but it it sounds to me like you you know took loads of elements of of that journey and you've kind of channelled it, and and that's coupled with your kind of personality and your drive and your ambition.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

I think it's also on that it's it's uh my my family's always ran small businesses, right? So I've always known how a small business operates compared to a big corporation. Okay, because it's been with my blood within my family. So I think if you haven't had that experience before, I think you'd find going from a big agency to a startup maybe quite difficult. Yeah, but I I had I I had almost this I I knew what to expect almost, yeah, you know, in terms of how budgets are handled, how resourcing is handled, how close a founder wants to be to the decisions you make, you know, it's that that's the big thing that's different, right? And I think that's probably the biggest call out is you know, the founder love wants to be very involved, whereas the big corporation or big agency, you're so far detached that you you don't have that influence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Um because it's tiers and tiers of correct leadership and hierarchy, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Yeah, and you can work one or two ways, it could work against you or it could work for you. And luckily for me, it works for me because you know, my CEO Paul uh loves to be really involved in product and he's a visionary. So for us, it works totally in our favour to be able to have a really clear direction of what where we need to move towards as a product.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Yeah, great. And one of the things that we talked about, um we talked about for for a while actually in in you know working together and uh hiring and and and building building teams at Jewel. And it surprised me, but in another way it didn't that your kind of you know, your your your your um your sort of passion and your ideas for hiring are very Much you know, linked to, and you mentioned it earlier, that agency world, because of you know, all the benefits that you've had, um, and the you know how you've been developed and the experience that you've gained from that agency world, that you're looking to sort of you are you're doing it and looking even more so to sort of bring those skill sets and those backgrounds into Joule as Joule is scaling, and you know, you're very um you know, you're very passionate about that. And and you you talk about it a lot, and it's interesting because and I think one of the reasons I want to talk about that and and and for people to to hear that is because having done a lot of recruitment um you know across digital technology for years, one of the things that I've always found is that a lot of companies, you know, um client side um in-house businesses that I work for, there's there's there's there's been there's been a bit of a reluctance with some businesses to take people from agency side. It's a bit crazy, yeah. Right? And so I I think so too. I mean, um to be fair to some of those companies that I've worked with in the past, is it might have been a little while ago, and mindsets are definitely changing, um, but it's still quite why do you think it is? It's a really good question, and I think I think it's because they they like people that have just focused on you know road mapping, like conceptualizing, you know, building and and shipping a product and being like living and breathing that that product and that brand. Yeah, and I think they want to it's almost like concept to completion, and you know, they want they want those people and and those product teams to build and build within that within that client and then those people from agency though hundred percent, hundred percent. And um I I'm not um I I don't really kind of sway either way as such, but I but I also know that um we've talked about it, but but you know, I've I've experienced it firsthand with candidates I've dealt with that they have been really good at really adapting quickly, working at pace, under pressure with you know big brands that you know really have high expectations. And you know, they they uh their their product craft is exceptional as an example, and designers, by the way. Yeah, um, but I yeah, I I think that's what's driven it, and and also you know, some of these uh sort of startups, you know, a lot of startups are they they want people who have got have got you know experience of working in a startup, you know, building products zero to one, and that whole kind of environment of a startup where you've got a lot more flexibility and autonomy to to wear different hats because you have to. Whereas you know people sort of talk about sometimes in agencies it can be a bit siloed and you know, you're literally that's that's your role, right? Stay in your lane. So there's a big element of that. But obviously, you know, the the way that Joule is approaching things, obviously, with a massive influence from you, that's that's that mindset's changing or changed.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Yeah, I mean, I'm lucky for me, I was given a chance by you know the guys at Joule to you know, they took a chance on me from coming from big agency background. But I I guess it goes back to my background being very much like I've been in the startup within the agency, so I've had to always wear naturally many hats where I haven't always worn a normal traditional agency hat where it is you stay in your swim lane and you stay there, and it that's ultimately what you do. Um, and but that's the type of agencies Helen I look for, Tony. So when I'm hiring now, I want to I want to see the type of teams that they were a part of and the types of roles that they were in within an agency.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

You know, this is drilled into my brain, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Yeah, mate, great. So my hiring degree is gonna be so much easier. So it's like for me, it's like, you know, if someone was a media planner buyer and that's all they did in their career and they just went from different agency to different agency, probably not the right fit for us. Yeah. Not the right fit for what I'd look for. However, if if if they did many different roles within an agency, that for me is a little bit more interesting because they didn't stay in their swim lane. They, you know, they got to experience many different things, many different hats, like what a startup basically needs. Um, but you've got some really bloody good talent right now. Agencies are going through a weird time, just generally, with with AI and how fast things are moving and and their operating model and their the way that they charge is changing and it's causing a lot of disruption. So naturally, there's a lot of redundancies at the moment. So there's some really good talent out in the market that uh you know we're finding that are perfect for you know the the the progression that we're moving towards as a business.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Nice. Okay, great. That's great to hear. And I'm sure people like listening to this and watching this will be really encouraged by that because, like you say, there are some fantastic people out there, right? Really talented people, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:28

I mean, I would say the only recommendation I would have for anyone coming from agency world, you know, depending on you know the AI ecosystem that you have in your agencies, you just need to really throw yourself in to be adaptive and agile in on all of the different technologies that are available right now. Because in a startup, you you have no option but to use it. You need to and use it as an understatement. You need to be able to be so adapt or adept with with AI, it needs to be something that you live and breathe in in a startup world. Um whereas agencies aren't necessarily there yet. Startup, you know, the way how fast we're moving with it at the moment at Joule is, you know, last week you I thought I was getting, you know, I was across and I was one of the pros in the business. This week it's a completely different story with all the new changes in Claude. Like it moves so quickly that you just need to be across it to understand, you know, the you know, how to do your role the best you possibly can.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Yeah, I I don't I I said to um uh my one of my previous guests on here, uh Bridget, and um, you know, she's she's VP in a in a in a in a really fast-growing uh health tech. She's kind of you know always been from a health uh uh tech medicine. She actually was good to study medicine, right? But she she was saying that there's not a day goes by where you know some element or something's happened within AI and something new's come about that that doesn't blow her mind. So I I totally agree with that, right? I'm sure a lot of people would say the same. I mean, I even today I've had a couple of conversations with uh some some product designers uh and some roles that we're working on, and uh they were telling me about some of the the sort of sort of kind of tweaks and new stuff coming in and discoveries with Claude.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

And it I I just literally I mean they couldn't see me, but I sat on the phone, I'm like I'm literally Well I mean I was on the Uber on the way here and I built a little prototype like an actual web application on the Uber here. That's how quick things are moves. It's just prototyping is wild compared to what it used to be now. Absolutely, you used to have to go through a UX designer to do to do all that stuff now. As a as a product owner, or you know, any type of role in products, you can go and prototype in the matter of minutes versus what you used to have to do.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Absolutely blows me, it's wild. Yeah, it is. Let's talk about Jul. Um, this this pivotal role that you find yourself in. It's funny actually, because I remember we were sort of told that, you know, oh, we you know, we've got a new VP of product coming in, you know, this is his name. I remember looking at him thinking, who the hell is this? I don't know, I don't know this dude. Who the hell is this? Yeah, where's he come from? But also I will caveat this by saying, you know, I know I've been around like quite a while, but I don't know everyone. And there's a because people say to me, Oh, Tony, you know, you know everyone in product. So I was like, I know a lot of people, but there's a lot of people I don't know. Yeah. And as it's just got bigger and bigger, and then obviously, particularly if someone's come from another, you know, another geography, but I remember sort of seeing your profile and thinking, oh, agency, but are they okay, this guy looks really interesting. And I'm trying to work out the correlation. How come he's come into a tech style and all that sort of stuff? But let's talk about Joule and that whole kind of um, you know, brand advocacy and yeah, everything that the business is doing because it is exciting, it's it's it's really cutting edge, it's it's really disruptive, and you know, there's so much going on. Let's it'd be great to sort of hear about that and you know, kind of where you're at in that sort of journey and and yeah, everything that's happening is it's so exciting.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Yeah, it is. I mean, uh you think about just traditional marketing, right? Traditional marketing is very much around spending money to try and attract customers or to advertise to them. Brand advocacy is the that on uh on the flip side, it is the complete opposite to that. Yeah, you know, if you think about, I use this example, and this is the best way I try and explain brand advocacy to someone that's not aware of what it is. I have a really good girlfriend of mine, she loves Lululemon. Yeah, right. But she's not a you know, she's not a creator or an influencer in any capacity, but she will tell all of us about how much she loves her Lululemon tights. Um and then that for me naturally influenced my purchase decision. And I now go buy Lululemon for the gym. Um, what we're trying to do at Jewel is capture that friend, capture and reward that friend for doing what she's she's already doing. Where she's become an advocate of a brand, she already loves and is a brand fan. Uh, we're rewarding her for doing what she's already naturally doing, which is telling more and more people about her experience, which is obviously quite positive, and about the products that she's buying, which then helps influence other decisions in the purchase funding.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Which is powerful because the way that social media just literally just spreads like wildfire, it's a great vehicle to be able to use it and get that out there, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:49

And and and and social media is obviously a massive channel for us to do that on because you've got content creators and content creation is where you get that scale and reach. But the difference is we're not looking at talking about you know your celebrity influencers or you know, those guys with the really polished content. We're looking at your mum and dad, you know, that just really love that brand, that want to post content about that brand and then reward them for doing that and in and and help them influence others in doing the same thing. Nice. Um, and that's really the difference between you know uh paid advertiser, but also influencer to brand advocacy. You know, the the what we're seeing, you know, you got we call them nano influencers really or nano you know advocates, nano creators. Yeah, they drive so much more engagement and revenue for a brand compared to a normal influencer. It's actually quite wild. Like the days of an influencer, given the algorithm changes in social platforms, you don't need a massive follower count anymore to go viral. No, um, you know, you really don't, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:48

We see it every day, you know. 100% crazy.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Like I have one of our big beauty brands um we did a test with recently, uh, and we did a test to show to validate that it didn't matter how many follower accounts you had, right? It you could still drive tremendous value or revenue for that brand. We actually saw in that small window by un uh removing any threshold of follow accounts that actually a people with under a thousand followers drove 33% of the revenue in that period of time. So guys that literally have maybe a couple hundred, if that, are driving that huge incremental influence and purchase behavior. So advocacy as is such an untapped tool at the moment, but brands that really lean into it are the ones that are really skyrocketing. You know, our brands are huge that we work with, like we work with Target in the US, and you know, their advocate uh advocacy base is in the millions, which is huge. So jewels helps enable that to happen.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Yeah, it's amazing. And for people that are listening and watching this that that don't necessarily um yeah, haven't come across it before, when people, you know, that when they're when they are an advocate of that brand and you know they're they're pushing that, you know, some of it's like unconsciously, right? It it just you know, even just saying to you, oh, I like Lululemon, you know, and it kind of it evolves from there. How do these people get rewarded? How does that how does that sort of reward um system uh work? How does how does it happen?

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Yeah, so Joule purposely is an infrastructure place. So we purposely don't have a seat at the table. So you won't know the Joule branding because we're we're the we're the mechanics behind the brand that enables that to happen. So you'll know the brand and you you will be the secret source behind that brand that's activating advocacy. So uh a lot of the the uh the way that advocates are rewarded is by uh we have different types of challenges or tasks for the advocates to participate in.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Um, they participate in that challenge and they get rewarded for doing so. So all they have to do sometimes is simple surveys so the brand can get to know you better. It could be creating or posting content, it could be going out and trying a new product and then giving you an honest review of that product. Right. Um it's all exposure, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:00

It's all yeah, it's all exposed.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Correct, and it all drives tremendous value for a brand. We have our own metric at Joule called gross advocacy value or GA. Yeah, and it's the right mixture of uh earned media value and affiliate sales, and that ultimately is your driving North Star metric for a brand. Everything we do at Joule is to drive or increase Gav. And so even your surveys or your your reviews, they already drive earned media value. The way that we can report and the way that we do report at Joule just shows such tremendous uplift and just the small, easy things that someone can do. You don't need to do this beautiful TikTok or YouTube tutorial video. That's not what drives revenue or drives sales for brands. It is the simple, honest, in your messy bathroom review of a product is what drives real life, real life, real life, yeah, real life, and people are leaning into that more and more with more and more AI generated content that's polished and seamless. People have got a sixth sense to that now. They they almost steered separate away from that, they want the real messy, authentic content, which is advocacy. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Because it it I find it particularly interesting because there's within sort of the media social media, and you know, I my daughter's 20 years old, right? She, you you know, the pressures, and yeah, you see the stuff on the news, and you hear about you know pressure with sort of fashion and you know, weight and stuff like that with people and judging and you know, all the bullying and stuff, you hear all this stuff, and because a lot of that stuff is just not the real world, is it? It's just not you know, a lot of it's just so you know AI generated or whatever it may be, but it's just it's just not day-to-day life. So when you hear stuff like that, actually it's quite refreshing because it's it, yeah, it's raw, it's like it's real, it's exactly authentic as it is.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

I mean, it takes a lot, it takes a lot of trust and it and the uh injure from the brand to be able to go down the avenue as well, right? Because brands have traditionally wanted very pop, that's why they love influencer, because they can control the narrative, right? They can control the look and feel. Yeah, whereas advocacy is you have to be comfortable losing control. That's what advocacy is. You have to be comfortable knowing and allowing and enabling uh advocates to kind of do what feels natural to them and what they love to do, and then reward them generously for doing so.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. Um, unbelievably, we're kind of coming towards the end. It feels like it's Wow, yeah, right. We we were we were sort of like talking about before you know, but behind the cameras, like thinking, you know, you know, it's a long time, blah, you're a bit nervous at that kind of thing, both of us. Um, but we've it's been a great conversation. I suppose really, just to kind of just to wrap up, there's a couple of kind of final questions that I'd love to ask you. One of them is we talked about a lot about the journey and a lot of things that are going on in your world, you know, technology, you know, the drivers, new things coming in. With all of that in mind and and a sort of a little bit of an eye on the future, which we've all got because there's always that curiosity about what's going to be, what's gonna happen. What are you excited most excited about right now?

SPEAKER_00 59:06

Excited or most frightened about I mean you can answer both, mate.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

It's up to you. But I I you know I'm just really interested because you're at the you're in the thick of it. Like what you know, yeah. Excited, frightened, you know.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

I think the way like speaking very much from the industry that I'm in and and the role that I'm in, uh what excites me is the ide of how fast you can build right now, and how fast you can get things into customers' hands. Yeah, like it is unprecedented to what we've had ever seen. We're talking a matter of days, you know. Uh, you know, talking about an example like Claude Co-work was built in on a weekend, I think, or over a week. Um, you know, the fact that you can build so quickly, and that's what we're doing now, is it it excites me, but what also frightens me is the speed of thing of change.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

And it is frightening, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:53

It is just because things are just moving. Like, mate, for me to keep uh keep up to what's going on. I'm watching YouTube videos as a shower just so I can actually get my finger on the pulse of what's going on. Otherwise, you know, next week it's it's um you left behind 100%. Yeah, yeah. I think that's the challenge that uh product uh anyone working in product is gonna have is you've got to keep up with the pace that things moving.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

I've lost count of how many times I have that conversation. If I was to average it out, I've lost count of how many times I've had that conversation or that feedback from product folk, right? Just saying literally that just changes like it trying to keep up with it, you know, listening to podcasts on the training.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

But me, what's so exciting about it is like the idea of like your normal engineers changed, you know. Oh yeah. Product is becoming more and more the the it's it it's crossing over more than we've ever seen before, you know, where product can build a prototype, and engineer just needs to activate and build the back end, and you've got a working, working MVP in market in a matter of a really short time. So I think what's quite interesting and what what is exciting is the the relationship between engineering and product is is evolving and changing massively. Yeah, like an example, uh, and I can kind of end on this, is we we're now having to rebuild and redefine our entire operating model with engineering from a product perspective because it's evolved that much.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

Wow. That's yeah. I'm starting to hear this more and more. That's that's mind-blowing, isn't it? Really? Yeah, the old ways don't work anymore. No, no, but it's like before, I mean, it's so much more accelerated now, but it's like before when a new technology was created and brought out, you know, basically it's a target for someone to topple and better it as soon as possible. You know, it was always a thing, you know, a new front-end technology came out, right? Well, you know, someone's gonna devise something, you know, and develop something that's gonna be better, you know. And it's but obviously now it's so much more you know accelerated and magnified because of AI.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

And I think the old process doesn't work anymore, right? Like the the idea of creating a a PID or product requirements document and then going through this whole like UX like uh you know process and then testing that in market, you we're not even doing PIDs anymore. We're going straight to prototyping. So I think this whole the the old process just doesn't exist, it can't exist anymore in this day and age.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

No, exactly. I think that's the thing, it can't. Um final question, love to finish it. I'd love to finish on this, and I'll ask everyone this. What advice would you give to people watching this, you know, aspiring? Um, you know, it doesn't have to be product managers, it doesn't, you know, people in our digital technology industry, um, it could be relevant to products, obviously, because you're a VP of product, but but just someone who what advice would you give to someone who you know is early in their career and you know they're they're they're very ambitious and you know they want to sort of build and carve that right road for them, that right path for themselves. What advice would you give them um based on your experience and you know things that you do differently as well, like knowing what you know now? What advice would you give them and also someone who is looking to relocate you know from a different country?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

Don't be scared to experiment. And what I mean by that is don't feel like you have to have that set role and you stay within that set role's parameters. You know, I I what I found quite interesting in my career is the ability to be able like I did many different things, like I could have stayed in adopts, I could have stayed in media, I could have stayed in production, now I'm in a startup. What I've what I've found that's been really beneficial to me is the idea of having experience across many different sectors or different types of that sector, which has helped form me as a leader and my perspective as a leader. Um I have an interesting view now because I can I can put different things or pieces together that I wouldn't necessarily be able to do if I just stuck in my swim lane continuously. So I mean it's not gonna be for everyone, but I would definitely recommend if you can and you have the opportunity to do so, is experiment or try different roles, don't just always stay in the same. Yeah, and you could stay in product, but just work across different industries if you can, yeah, and you have that experience and that different view. Um but then some people are gonna want to l live and die in finance, for example. Yeah, and that's great. Hats off to you. It's definitely not for me. Yeah, um, but I think I think it really shapes a good leader and good perspective and on how to think how to view things, and also just um you know, stay humble, you know, still still wanna still be a bit of a bulldog, but you know, remember remember uh uh humility is key.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

I think that staying humble element is it's a really elementary thing actually that is really effective, but a lot of people overlook it, right? But it's it's it's it's nice to hear that. Yeah. Um and and and and how about the kind of thing about you know embracing a different country and how would you what advice would you give on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

Don't think what anyone can ever tell you is what to expect. It's like the thing that I would say, you know, no matter how many people told me what to expect about moving to the UK, until you do it, you just don't know. I think um keep friends and family close, like you you're gonna you're going to need it when you go through such a big change. Yeah, um but be patient. You know, I've had I've had friends that have uh uh moved here last six months and then left. And I'm like you need at least two years to really feel settled here. Give it time and you give it give it time, yeah. Really give it some time, be patient. Um, it's gonna feel uncomfortable, but uncomfortable is where you grow.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

Yeah. And now I go home and think, shit, I didn't think I could ever move back home now.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

Do you really think that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:25

It's it was hardly Christmas, and I was like, oh no, shit, I think I've gone, I've turned that corner.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:31

Wow, okay. Yeah, it feels that's a that's a real thing, right? That's that's it, that's a it happens. It's a big thing to say, yeah. Yeah, but I suppose when you're here, you're just so engrossed in your day-to-day and you're you know embracing of like culture and the new norm for you. It's like actually it's just it just becomes a norm. It's amazing how actually, as human beings, we don't like change, but then actually quick how quickly you embrace habits and just uh like you just get into a normality and all of a sudden you forget, you know, periodically other things.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

Well, that's another thing I would recommend as well for anyone listening, is get comfortable with change. I think that's the biggest like we live in a world of change right now, we have no no option to other than change. Yeah, uh, and that was something I did early on in my career, and that's why I moved different roles in different agencies, is because I loved I what I was a weird one, like I loved change, um, and so I like being being uncomfortable. So yeah, being comfortable with being uncomfortable is a is a key thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

Look, I as expected, that is uh is brilliant advice, and I think anyone watching this would be like actually, yeah, because it's it's real real food for thought, and it's uh I hope hopefully that resonates with people that are kind of looking to make that change, you know, really step out of their comfort zone. I agree with you, by the way. I think pushing yourself out of your comfort zone is is is the best way for you to better yourself and become better at everything you're doing. Um, it's something that I am really trying to do with lots of different things. I'm failing on some of it, winning on others. Hell yeah. But but you're right, yeah, but that's how you that's how you learn. So listen, I I think it's brilliant advice. And also, Blake, thank you so much for coming on. I've absolutely loved it. I've always enjoyed spending time with you. So thank you so much, mate.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Thank you. Cheers, buddy. Cheers.