SPEAKER_00 0:00

When I got offered the job, I was like, I don't know if I'm ready for this exec role, to be totally honest. And when I called Richard about that, he was like, Of course you're ready. What do you mean? And I actually think women in particular fall into this trap and they are like, oh well I need to go build up some more knowledge before I could go for that opportunity. I have a propensity for taking action now to then learn from that. Don't wait for somebody else to believe in you. Believe in yourself and go for it. If you're not going to believe in yourself, why do why will anybody else, rather than asking permission for everything, just say what you think we should do. Initiative. With conviction. Yeah, initiative. And just get it done.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Hi there and welcome to another episode of On the Pulse, a podcast where we talk to senior industry leaders in the digital technology space. My name's Tony Molcock, I'm the co-founder of Pulse Group, and today we're joined by Bridget West. Bridget is a senior product leader operating at the forefront of Health Tech, where she's responsible for building and scaling high-performing product, design and engineering teams. She's played a key role in shaping products that operate in complex, regulated environments, balancing innovation, user needs, and real world impact. What makes Bridget particularly interesting is her experience navigating leadership at scale from building international teams to operating at executive level in fast-growing businesses. Her background, combining deep experience in product development, research, and policy understanding, allows her to create and scale healthtech products that are both evidence-based and generally user-centred. Bridget, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Thanks so much, Tony. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

So exciting. So I suppose a little bit of background first before we sort of go into this. I was very fortunate through a mutual contact of ours who we know and love very well, very much, to get introduced. I think it was about four years ago. Yeah, about four or five years ago. Yeah. And, you know, I'm very lucky to have that introduction, and we've become good friends since then in the industry. We share the passion for our industry and many other things outside of that. We get together and we catch up and we like literally jibber-jabber and talk about everything and anything. This is a little bit different, it's a bit probably a bit out of our comfort zone for a number of reasons. Probably one of them being it's a little bit more structured and we've got uh you know things we want to get out of. Yeah, exactly right. But but it's I'm sure it's going to absolutely flow. And yeah, and I think there's there's a number of things that we can really share, and and hopefully a lot of people can get out of this this pod. So yeah, I'm no doubt, right? So um let's let's start right with your with your journey. And it has been an amazing journey for if you don't want me saying, someone who is still fairly young, right, to be at leadership level in our industry. It's been amazing. I'm a bit biased because of our relationship, but am I? Because I just say it as it is, right? And um, but let's talk about that journey. Talk talk to talk to us about you know how it started, where it was like, you know, what what made you you know get into this? Because you could have chosen anything. Yeah. Right. But you chose you chose product in the digital technology space. Why?

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Well, I think it all started with what I chose to study at university, um, not directly but indirectly. So I studied medical sciences at university, initially wanted to get uh wanted to be a doctor, didn't get into med school, so went to study um science. And after uni, found myself setting up a beauty tech company. Actually, I didn't mean to set up a tech company, it was very much about the evidence base behind beauty products. I've always been fascinated by scientific research, making evidence more accessible. Um and I found myself running that company, but it wasn't quite the right fit. Like beauty tech.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Scary, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Well, scary, but I learned heaps. Like it's a brilliant opportunity to meet lots of people and learn lots of things. I didn't know anything about business when I set up that company. And it's one of those things that I look back on and I think, God, I'd have I'd run it so differently today. It's like I think, yeah, maybe um maybe the lessons that I've learnt over the years though, like if they weren't grounded in all of that early failing.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Um so having your own company, I mean that is scary, right? Yeah, but surely, or or actually I'll I'll put it another way, is it fair to say that it's put it's kind of it's been really fundamental to putting you where you are today? The foundations that it gave you.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Yeah, because as the founder, you get exposed to all different aspects of business. So yeah, yeah, you know, this first time 15 months in or 18 months in whatever it is. Everything from like doing the company accounts to getting user feedback to designing the product. It's my first time like ever working with engineers, designers. Um, and I failed heaps, and I learned really about how to build good product by building a company that didn't work. Um, and from there I actually ended up being really fortunate of um meeting a woman called Hina Zaman who founded a women's health telehealth company, one of the first like telehealth companies in that space. And this was like really early in my career. So it's way before now everybody's consulting with um GPs, um healthcare professionals online, but it was way before that. It was when people were like, God, I wouldn't ever imagine doing that over a video call.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

It'll be in person, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

And so I found myself then working on a like in a problem space that I was really passionate about. Like the reason I'd gone into medical sciences because I cared a lot about healthcare and advancing, um, advancing healthcare. And so I found the that was that was the place where I learned I could marry the um domain of healthcare with actually the pace and how tech companies run out. It was um that was then when I realized ah, health tech is my bag.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

But in terms of like actually thinking, right, I'm gonna be a product manager or I'm gonna go into product leadership, I never thought that at that stage. I just found myself running the products team, like the product engineering design team and loving it. And I was that was a really early stage startup. We were based out of um the Google co-working spaces, right? Okay, like not far from here in Old Street. In Old Street, yeah. Um, and someone there who had spent a heap of time in like Silicon Valley was like, Oh, what you do is you're a product manager. And I like went away, googled what a product manager was, and I was like, Cool, I'll be a product manager.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Um like a lot of people, like a lot of people who go into product, right? I said, Oh, what's this?

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Like I didn't I didn't like do the linear path of junior PM to PM and go through go through um that process. So it was basically I was just guided by my curiosity. And I happened to go into company. I was it was I've been very driven in my career around the types of problems that I want to solve. And product is the place in the company where you're often well positioned to actually really solve those problems. So um over the years I've worked on lots of different health tech products across business models, direct to consumer, B2B, B2B to C. Um, I've worked across different business models but also different areas of healthcare. So I've always just been like, oh, I'd really like to go and explore that new space and have found roles that enable me to do that. Um, and in terms of the leap from kind of like product manager, so leading uh like one or a few product teams to actually product leadership roles, executive roles, I think that happened quite naturally. Um I was given the opportunity to kind of keep expanding my remit, leading more teams. Um, and then when I was at Newman, which is the role before Dr. Care Anywhere, um the there was a change in leadership, which gave me an opportunity to step up and actually play more of a role as leading the team there. And it made me realize that that's what I really wanted to do, uh, work on the vision, the strategy for the whole product org of like for the company. Um, I found that really exciting. And that's what I've done ever since. But I'd say I've always been guided by my curiosity rather than job title. It's always been about like what's the remit of this role, what type of problems will I be solving? Yeah. Like what's the product actually doing? And because I'm so healthcare specific, that's often what healthcare prop, like what healthcare problem is this solving, and what's the impact? Like, that's the reason I get out of bed in the morning is shipping product that genuinely has an impact on the world.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

It makes a difference, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah, and and a lot of uh you said in my bio around like policy and research, yeah. A lot of when I've added extra strings to my bone, so to speak, has been to be able to do that better, to be able to solve problems better. So understanding how you get the evidence base you need to scale a product or how you get the right policy in place to scale a product is all about solving problems well and having an impact. And that's what's always driven me. It's like, how do you now it's like how do I lead teams of people to get behind the same mission, have the same vision, the same image in their head of where we're heading, and then do the day-to-day problem solving decision making that gets us there.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Okay. On that, yeah. Just going back just going back a bit, yeah, um really curious. I'm sure people listening to this would be as well. You could have, you know, you were kind of almost sort of fell into like product within health tech, right? Within medicine, within just health tech overall. Essentially, someone that is, you know, smart, you know, picks things up quickly, it's got a natural curiosity and he's got that kind of mindset of making products better for consumers. Yeah, yeah, is is is a good recipe for someone to uh you know pursue a vocation as a as a product manager, right? Yeah, yeah. Broadly speaking. There'll be some people looking at this going, no, no, no, you need, you know. But you could have chosen, a point I'm leading to is you could have chosen any uh domain, any particular vertical within product management, within digital technology, but you chose health tech. Was that purely driven by everything that you've just said and your background? Or was or was it just actually it's just the thing that you because you were so passionate about it, you didn't that there was nothing else that you feel could sort of almost like tempt you away from that. Yeah. You know, like e-com retail or you know, sort of pure play, you know, within sort of mobile pure play technology or ad tech or is it just I I have to do that? But you you mentioned it like make a difference, but was it that and that alone?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yeah, I think so. I think I can see all the problems in healthcare, and like because people say to me, like, will you always work in health tech? And I'm like, I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe not. But as long as the videos are up, yeah. But for now, I can see plenty of problems to go after. Um, and that is what drives me as solving really hard um healthcare problems. And in terms of like how I ended up in product, I kind of saw it as like the place where you got to work with all of these amazing disciplines. So I work with engineers, clinicians, designers, um, and many other like people. And as a PM, you get exposure to all of these different ways of thinking, approaching problem solving. And like one of the things that I love about what I think are really good product people is when you've got like a real diverse set of disciplines and people round a table solving problems, and like that's where I went into it. And then healthcare, I think just like it's like there's the moments in my career that are the real highlights are when I have got sort of a piece of user feedback or I'm looking at impact metrics, and something has genuinely improved the healthcare for an individual, a group of individuals, like a Doctor Doctor, our product is used by millions of patients. So when we ship something and it improves the it improves the accessibility of patients being able to get an appointment out, or it makes it way easier and less stressful for them to manage their care. Um, like when you see that and you see the feedback coming in from patients or healthcare teams as well, like making their lives easier, allowing them to do the job that they signed up to do when they went into when they went into university to become a doctor or a nurse, but now a bogged down in paperwork. And when we automate some of that stuff away and get them more face-to-face, that's what gets me out of bed in the morning. It's the outcomes we create with the technology rather than the technology itself. So it's the problems that we solve, the outcomes that we create, which is why I went into it. And that's what drives me. Like the thing that I love doing most week to week at Doctor Doctor is looking at like our impact dashboard, like what are the problems that we've solved and what are the impact of solving those problems. Yeah, and that like really drives and motivates not just me, but most of our team as well.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Nice, I love that. And I think that anyone that knows product, yeah. Um people, you know, people know that it's got to be, you know, products enable so many things and they change lives, and this is a plain example. But it's got to be, you know, when when I engage people about a new opportunity and I approach them whether they're looking or not, it's you know, it's got to be a product that that they you know makes them sort of stop and look, you know, and makes their ears prick up, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, otherwise it's like being in a race and it's like a full start, it's just a non-starter because you've if you're not excited and passionate about the product for whatever reason that may be, then there's just no point, right? Because that's exactly that, it's what gets you out of bed in the morning. And I think with health tech, it's a really interesting thing because you know, I I I have strong opinions, and I there's probably I don't know, but there's probably very, very few people that aren't interested in their health, right? Yeah. So, you know, I mean there's lots of other products out there which I won't sort of detail because people probably be a bit, oh hang on me, you've singled that out. Yeah. But that aren't of interest to people for various different reasons. Yeah. Um, but but but health health care and health tech is is something that is in the forefront of our minds all the time. Yeah. Certainly, you know, I don't know, but I you know, I'm I feel this, but as as as I've got older, as I'm getting older, you become more aware of your mortality.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

And so you're very conscious about certain things that you think about and you talk about, and you know, within friendship groups, within families day to day. And the kind of things that you're doing and the products you're evolved with every day are making a huge difference. So I can understand how it's like it's all that it's all that analogy of like, I don't just kind of, you know, just amble out of bed. I'm kind of up because I I love to do it.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Totally. And that's what we look for also when we're hiring as well, is that um because healthcare is also hard, right? Like the go-to-market can be really complicated depending on, yeah, depending on your business model and um who you're selling to and who your users are, but um you have to have that motivator, that drive to get things like being a PM is also hard, right? Like it's like a it's a hard job. Um, and then doing that within the healthcare domain, it can be a really hard domain. So you have to be motivated. Yeah. Um, so it's something that we like I'll test for in in interviews. Like, why why are you interviewing with us? Like particular I love hiring people from non-healthcare domains because I think yeah, interesting. Usually I look at the team, yeah, exactly. But but but also to give like fresh perspectives as well. So if someone spent heaps of um time in like e-commerce, they can bring lots of um lots of learning into our team. Like obviously, you have to balance the team. Yeah, of course. And we do need like domain expertise in there as well. Yeah, but we we're really thoughtful about who's in who's in our product teams. And yeah, it's totally about balance. And I think like we can learn so much from people that have never worked in the domain. Like, often um, often I'll have conversations with product teams where they'll be like, oh, I'm not sure this is possible, it's too risky. And what somebody from a non-regulated space comes in with is a bit of a naivety around like the art of the possible. You have to pair them up with the right people that'll uh evaluate the risk, right? But that's how you build good product. I'm really passionate about that. But that's why it's really important for those people that haven't ever worked in healthcare before to really ask them like what motivates you, what drives you, why this role? But we do find quite a few people, um, I can think of like people we've hired recently who have worked in an industry like say, I don't know, like gaming or gambling, um, and they're like, I just want to do something more meaningful.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Do you tend to draw so with those different domains, would you tend to look at people that are from regulated environments?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

It depends on the role. Right. It depends on the role.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

The product it can be varying domains, but it has to be regulated. But it depends more on the role.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

It totally depends on the role. So some roles, um, so for example, we've got one product um team that's really focused on our clinical experience, our experience for clinicians. Yeah. And um that having somebody with the expertise of how to navigate regulatory hurdles and um how to make sure that everything we're doing is clinically safe and effective, like that's really valuable experience. But we've got other product teams where the domain expertise is less relevant. Um, I mean, we with anybody working in our product team, we expect over time for them to develop like a good understanding of our market, our users, the domain that we're operating in. But like we don't hire necessarily for that knowledge. I feel like that's quite an easy thing to teach a lot of the time. We're hiring for whatever the person is bringing to the table for a particular role, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yeah, no, it does. It really does. And it kind of makes me think about a scenario with um with a with a senior product director that I I know very well. And um, I I I think I think it's I think we both know her actually. But basically, she so this is interesting, and uh to your point, because she comes from outside of um health tech. She's been in she she's now in in the health sector, but but basically she was very much about you know, she was in this kind of um kind of zone of like, you know, monetised, you know, product monetised, drive revenue, drive revenue, very commercial, right? And um something happened in her life where she you know very sadly lost her mum, and she was in this mindset of like, I I I've enjoyed what I've done up until now and I've loved it, and it's been great, and I've learned a lot, and it's got me to where I have. Yeah, but I want to sort of change that mindset, and I now want to be able to do something that actually really makes a difference and gives you know gives something back. And she was really determined to get into health tech in a product leadership role, yeah. Uh, and yeah, that was driven by what happened to to her in her life, losing her losing her mum. But she she then, you know, and she actually bought at the time, very difficult with you know, she was needed a job, right? But she was being really selective and it stuck to her guns, which yeah, I respected her for massively. She's now a product director in the NHS.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

No cool.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Right, and it's and it's really and uh her life has just completely changed in terms of you know making a difference to people in a different way, yeah. You know, and that's that's what I always whenever we catch up and you give me an update of where you're at with stuff, that's always what shines through with you, you know, and that's why you know I wanted to to to invite you on here to talk to talk about it so people can hear about it, and because I I think it's I think it's inspirational. It is. Thank you. Yeah, and I think you know, it's it's about the journey, but it it's also about you know, you it doesn't just happen, right? No, it doesn't just happen, it's what you make it, and yeah, what I like and what's probably a bit um not unique, but it's quite interesting about what you've done is you've decided from a very early um stage that you know you've you've you've kind of studied that sort of medicine in the health in that health, you know, and the whole health tech bubble and medicine and you've wanted to carry on and you've just carried on and stuck to that because you love it, but obviously there's a lot that's happened in between.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

What was that kind of realization point where you thought, you know, yes, product, you've got into it and you kind of maybe you fell in as you said you fell into it. But what's what was that realization point where you th where you thought, you know, yes, I love the subject matter, but actually as in terms of product, I can really and I I want to um that ambition is absolutely there, that natural drive is there, but I it's product for me, and I want to, you know, because and I want to get to the position where you find yourself now and beyond. Where was that where was that sort of turning point, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I think it was probably when I shipped like the first version of an app, like when I could actually download something that we'd taken from ideation, like early concept, to having to be able to be like, oh my gosh, it's a real thing in the hands of like end users, yeah, and they're actually using it, and it's actually solving their problem. We um we one of the first products that I built was a breastfeeding QA um product, and I I could actually, when you asked me that question, I was trying to picture it, and that's what I was picturing. I was picturing that product when I was like, oh my god, it was it was a really simple product. It was like, it was like simple QA type product um with like that allowed a new mum or expectant mum to chat um to healthcare professionals on demand, which at the time was like unheard of. You'd have to book an appointment, or you know, it was it was really hard to get access to good breastfeeding advice. And so I remember being like, Oh my gosh, technology is the tool for improving accessibility of um of like these services, like for it works for this demographic, like this makes sense. And I've always worked on problems where I think I don't think all healthcare problems are to be solved with technology. Um so I've worked on problems where I can see, oh, actually, we could build something that solves that problem or makes it easy. So a lot of our time at um Doctor Doctor at the minute is like, how do we make the system, the NHS, work more effectively, more efficiently? How do we um take out a lot of the waste in the system? That is brilliant for a brilliant use case for technology for automation. Um, and that's the reason I joined Doctor Doctor because up to then I'd kind of been doing more patient-facing type products, and now I do a lot of kind of operational, patient, and clinical um products. So it's like a really it's a really good mix, but yeah, I think that's the reason product though, like it's shipping something and it having an impact. Yeah. Like it's just so exciting. I actually miss, I really miss designing something and seeing so like not that I ever did like design, but like going from like prototyping something or being in a workshop, thinking about or like even going from like strategy, right? This is a problem that we're gonna solve, and then taking that right through, and then going and speaking to users and watching them use the product. Like it gives me so much joy. Like even now though, when I go visit a hospital and I see people using Doctor Doctor or mates, like Doctor Doctors use I think about 50% of hospital appointments are supported by Doctor Doctor now. In in NHS hospital appointments, yeah, amazing. Um, so I get a lot of screenshots from mates, family where they've got like they're using the product because a lot of people haven't heard of Doctor Doctor, but might have used it if them or a loved one are in secondary care. Yeah, yeah, they're not conscious, but like friends that are doctors in London will send me pictures of like they're like them actually like with the logo screenshot log.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

And that's that drives me because I'm like, oh my god, it's actually like impacting people's lives, and the people that I know and like friends that are using our products to get better care. That means a lot to me.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Like, you know, I love that. Yeah, I love that. Okay, makes complete sense. I'm sure it does to anyone sort of listening, you know, watching this. Um, I want to talk about um I want to talk about women in technology.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Um I you know, I think I know that we're both of the opinion, I'm sure a lot of people are of the opinion that there's there's not enough uh women in technology. Um and to see someone, uh to see, you know, to see that particularly the product space, you know, the the more and more like getting a more of a gender balance is is obviously you know something that we all want, right? And we're all kind of striving for. Um, you know, from our world, you know, we do a lot of stuff like you know, um uh very, very neutralized sort of CVs, yeah, you know, to sort of try to really kind of work on that gender balance. Um, you know, and we anonymise CVs and things like that sometimes, um yeah, actually more and more so now, um, when we're submitting CVs and short lists for interviews, etc., and for review. Um, you know, you're a person that, you know, you're a woman that's come through the ranks, and you know, you now hold you know a really um a pivotal position uh in a in a business that in a scale-up business. Yeah. I I also I you know knowing you as well as I do, you're not one to um blow your own trumpet, but I'm really keen to understand what what you think is a differentiator with the way that you do things and what's driven you and helped you uh get to where you have today as as a as a as a female in technology.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

It's a di you know it takes some you know because I think there's been a number of different I think there's been a number of different things. I've had some people that I'm incredibly grateful for advocating for me and um telling me that I was talking myself out of opportunities before I'd even got in the room, and like pointing that out, mirroring that back to me and really backing me, like Richard, our virtual friend. Yeah, um, the amount of times I I I when I got offered the Dr Doctor job, I was like, I don't know if I'm ready for this exec role, to be totally honest. Yeah, and he was and when I called Richard about that, he was like, Of course you're ready. What do you mean? Like and so I think I've been really lucky to be surrounded by people that really believe in me, particularly at points where I've um I've not seen it. You wouldn't have done that. Um and I think that's especially um true, like when I I see it sometimes in the team, um in teams I've led over the years where um people think like that they need to be like have every single thing down before going for the next opportunity and putting themselves out there. Um and so I think that's been like one key thing has been having I've invested in coaching over the years, and I've got I've been really like lucky to have great mentors and advisors around me. I've like I really liked this concept. I can't remember where I picked it up about uh where I picked it up from, but like having a personal board. So I've got people that I go to speak to about what I'm thinking, yeah, and I'm really quite reflective on where I'm holding myself back as well.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Okay. Um that's a big thing, right? Yeah, self-awareness is yeah, self-awareness.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Um, but now I think over the years I have built by doing the reps, by just doing the thing, yeah, I've built up the self-belief and the confidence that I can do it and that I deserve to be in that room. And I've actually seen it as a bit of an advantage because I see things differently as well.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

So you you mentioned about having good people around you.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Are you it sounds to me like you'll you're a big advocate for mentoring, uh, you know, having the right sort of yeah, putting maybe putting yourself on sort of courses at leadership level or relevant, obviously relevant to your industry, but but you know, leadership, right? Yeah, yeah. But also learning from very, very good people. Our mutual friend that we talk about, Richard, uh, yeah, he when he all that time ago he introduced us. I remember thinking to myself at the time, you know, this is a guy who's obviously, as we both know, is incredibly well decorated. Yeah. And I we both know that he does not give out recommendations lightly. Yeah, and I remember when he he he introduced me and he said when he originally said to me, You need to speak to Bridget, you know, I'm gonna introduce you. Um part of the fact you'll get on very well, she is absolutely awesome. That's that they were his exact words verbatim, and I thought, okay, she must be good because that Richard doesn't give out recommendations that they and here we are. So uh surrounding yourself with those good people, yeah, coupled with your natural drive and determination and your passion for your for your um your industry, your vertical, your domain, would you say that they're all the all the you know that they're the the it's a good combination and concoction of things that's kind of got you to where you are today?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yeah, definitely. And I think I think probably just being all right with failing as well and like learning fast, I think um I going get like doing a science degree very much like it got chained into me that there was like a right or wrong or like things, you know, like there was a there was a right way to do things, and it's really interesting now because I often um when I have chats with people who are looking to get into product or maybe a more on the like junior end so the start of their career, and they're asking me about like what's the framework for the thing, like I'm doing a workshop, what framework or what workshop format do I need to use? And I'm like, Well, what are you trying to do? Like, well let's let's pick this apart. But I remember being that person as well, thinking that there was always like a right way to do something, and I if I could just read enough books or go on enough courses, and I actually think women in particular fall into this trap, and they are like, Oh, well, I need to go build up some more knowledge before I could go for that opportunity. Right. Um, and actually, sometimes doing it is the exact right approach. Like right now, everybody's learning about AI, how they apply it and how they build products, how they apply it and how they work. And like, I think I can I can feel me wanting to like go on a course and learn all about it. But actually, the best thing to do right now is just to play with the different tools, try to solve problems with them, see how you get on, and then ask AI to build you a course or to like do something tailored to you. But I do think that we can sometimes hold ourselves back by thinking, oh well, I'm just got to I couldn't possibly go and do that thing until I have all the knowledge. Like you'll get this as a founder, right? Like you have to just figure shit out, like you have to just work it out as you go.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Yeah, but I think who's gonna do it for you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

But I think sometimes I see people like stopping themselves from taking that next leap, that next opportunity, planning, planning, planning. And I used to fall into that trap, and I'm super conscious of it now, where I like have a internal motto, let's say, of like, like, no, take action. It's like I want to I have a propensity for taking action now to then learn from that. Just do it, just do it. Like, as Nike says, just do it, like crack on and learn as you go. And like the like don't wait for somebody else to believe in you, believe in yourself and go for it. Like, and but I had to really coach that into myself, and other people coached it into me as well. Because like, if you're not gonna believe in yourself, why did why will anybody else believe you?

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Like everything starts with you. Yeah, exactly. Everything starts with you, so it's it's about it's about that belief, but it's about conviction as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yeah, exactly. And also about being open, open to learning, like uh like having a gross mindset, like a mindset, like failing fast, learning, just and you get that from doing uh you get that from doing right, but um, I think that also has really been an advantage to me. Like I've seen how much of a positive impact that's had on my career when I don't wait for permission. That's the other thing. Like I had a conversation with someone in my team a few weeks ago about permission, and I was like, look, you're the expert in the company in this area. Like, rather than asking permission for everything, why don't you just say what you think we should do? Initiative with can with conviction and just get it done. And I'll back you, I'll support you.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Um so you back the whole kind of seek forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Well, within within yeah, but in healthcare, in healthcare, you have to like this right, like we have to build safely and effectively. So to an extent to an extent.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

But you'd rather like someone who is like full of idea you'd rather someone that was full of ideas and energy and passion for it, because as the phrase goes, you could chuck water on those people, right? Just like just just like you know, yeah, cool them down a little bit. But you would rather that as someone that's like that and has got is full of those ideas rather than trying to drag that energy, you know, positive energy and mindset out of someone.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Uh someone that's just a doer and just gets it done. And uh I really hire for that, particularly in a scale-up, a fast-growing scale-up, because the reality is you're often navigating a lot of ambiguity, and there's often not a playbook. You have to try and work out okay, like what's the best thing, what's the next thing that we're gonna do? Like, what's the best approach? Like, let's just try. You have to just have that curiosity and the drive to try and figure it out. Um, yeah. So I would say that that's like something I've had to teach myself and now try to coach into others as well.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Okay, great, that's really interesting. How do you talk to me about how you think product leadership changes depending on the size of company that you're in?

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah, it changes massively. I mean, product changes, like the role of everybody on the product team changes depending on like how the product org set up and how product-led um a company is, like how the organization operates totally changes the product role. Yeah. Um, and so I think like what I do in the interview process, but also when I get into a company, and I also like if I'm interviewing someone to join, I'm really transparent about the way that we operate, the way that our product org works, because I think it's really important because it product looks so different across different places. But one thing that I'll always do when I go into a company is like a bit of an assessment across like people, product, process, like in each of these areas, how is the organization currently set up? So like within products, it's like, is there a product strategy in place? What's the business model? How does company strategy flow into product strategy? Um, in process, it might be things around like how we're executing, how like what ceremonies are in place, and in people, it's like in each of the product teams, like how are the people operating, what skill set do they have, where are they really strong, where is the gaps, and you and basically spend that time almost like in discovery mode, kind of like in product discovery mode.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Literally, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Kind of being like, okay, and that like this is where the organization's at, this is what the like this is what what we need. So, like when I went into Doctor Doctor, the number one thing we need was a product strategy, a really clear product strategy. Yeah. So spent heaps of time, like not only understanding kind of the domain and everything I needed to to understand to work out what the product strategy should be, so like everything around the company strategy, mission stuff. Like it was the most intense but brilliant onboarding that you could imagine. Yeah. But like you craft the strategy, but then I realized, oh, right, okay, we need to do some organizational design because your organization is just like a reflection of that strategy, right? So it's like we need to change a bunch of stuff, and that that was the big thing for the first six to six months to 12 months was like, okay, this is the job that I need to do. Now, in some companies, you might go in and there might already be like it depending on like yeah, what stage the company's at, who's been there before, there might already be a solid product strategy. It might be a totally different set of problems that you need to change. Like, you need to go in with an open mind around where am I gonna add most value and where do I actually drive, how does product help the company like drive forward on its mission, strategy, vision? Like, how are we gonna like how as a product leader do I enable that? And how do I give the right context to the teams for them to enable that as well?

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

But I'd say like company stage, the type of company, like what your setup is as well, like who your peers are as well, like right now. Yeah, how you fit into that. That totally influences your product job. I had some really good advice a few years back actually, around um when I was kind of first in leadership roles, when someone said to me, like, the relationship the CFO and the CEO will make or break you as a product leader. And I kind of was like, oh, interesting. I would have thought it was like CTO, like, but now I get what he meant. Like, I really do. Like, not to say like I've got a brilliant relationship with our CTO, and that's really important, but actually you need to be strategically aligned and also commercially, financially aligned, like otherwise, your product strategy, like if your product strategy is over here and the company strategy, commercial strategy is over there, and they're not, then it's not all coming together, then but you've got to be conscious of what you're doing is making a difference, but also like the financial implications, the commercial impact on that product, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Exactly. And we run our products um like organizations. We could we could talk about products and investment portfolio. So all of our um like bets, if you like, have got business cases per bet, and then our teams are structured on different bets. Um, like well, our product teams, then we've got supporting teams, but every single bet, I like me, the PMs, the product teams all understand the commercials and like what impact we need to have for that bet to have paid off, for that to be viable for us as a company to keep investing because product teams are expensive, right? And like, so what's the ROI? And what's and like it, and how are our different bets contributing to where the company needs to go, like what we need to achieve as a company.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

It's not always easy to evaluate that either. No, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

And then different bets have different ways that we look at that, and we talk about like different stages of product market implementation fit. So if something's like really, really early stage with our sales cycle, like it could take, it could take a while before we see meaningful revenue um from it. Yeah, but later stage products where we're optimizing, we can get a bit like um, we can get a bit clearer on what like revenue target we need to drive. But we we treat it as an investment portfolio. We're really clear on how much we're investing in each thing and what the expected ROI is and what the milestones are. Um, and I think that's super important, like because I I remember when I in my first few product um roles, there was definitely a period of product where there was so much funding going into tech. And we were I I joke with one of my friends, one of my design friends, because we built a product that I couldn't tell you today what the ROI would be on it. Like it's so fun to build, and it was like investment, it huge investment, and but it looked really nice, like it was great, but like I couldn't tell you what like it was a nice to have, it wasn't a must-have, but at the time there were so many product teams, we were all building all of these things, and that might be fine depending on what company size, company stage uh you're at, but like it's made me really mindful over the years, like how much like one how much like having a commercial mindset is really key. Um, it's something we uh coach in it's in our capability frameworks for PMs, like it's something we coach into the product teams, yeah. So every product team will know their run rate of like how much their team costs per year and then like what the level of ROI they're going after for. And I think it's important to have that type of transparency. Yeah, and and we're a scale-up, right? Like we don't have endless time to like, yeah. And so it's important, like we're all here to deliver on our mission, yeah, to transition healthcare to a hybrid model. And so we have to be mindful of like where we're investing if we're seeing the ROI to help us. Are we getting further to delivering that mission? And I think everyone's like really um yeah, I think everyone's really embraced that actually. It's been really cool to start talking a bit more, like well, whatever the our chief operating officer is um used to be an investor, so he helps design the product as an investment portfolio, and we run it like investment meetings and we look at the business cases as an executive team.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Well, in effect it is because it's it is that within your business, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's interesting. And um when you when you think about it like when you when you think about that and that the the mindset that you that you have day day to day, uh how does it then sit with you know the the broad remit or the you know the the remit of your job as as you progress as get as you know gets broader and broader?

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

How do you balance that between you know product people politics?

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Yeah, process and process and process.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

Four things people, products, people, process, politics.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

It's I think it's a it's a really difficult balance that that I think a lot of product leaders are challenged by. Um how do you how does that sit with you? How do you how do you manage that?

SPEAKER_00 42:58

A lot of it is planning and then adapting the plan as I go. Yeah so each day I'll start the day with like what are the one to two highest impact, highest leverage things that I can do today and how am I gonna get them done? And I do that on a weekly basis as well. So I'll plan for my week of like, okay, what really is critical to get done this week.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Um, and obviously things come up, things adapt, but I keep it really focused because it's really easy. And I actually struggled with this when I first went into a leadership role, becoming super reactive, reacting to every Slack message, every every like request for a meeting.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Is this from the leaver person that doesn't want to say no and always wants to help it?

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Um, but I realize actually that's not I that's not the way that I should be operating to really have an impact. And like I can't see my role like that.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Is that because if you did it like that, you're literally running over here to do that, then you run over there to do that, and you you You know, all of a sudden you become you know, well known for as a bit of a busy fool, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Um, and I mean there's still a bit of that, right? Like you sometimes you find yourself back being a busy fool. Um, but most days, uh actually every day, I plan for like what's the highest impact thing I could do today. Okay. And I get that thing done. Um, but the team's my number one priority, making sure that they're enabled, they've got the strategic contacts that they need to be able to execute is really key. And like working out, like, okay, what are the different things because my role's really broad, right? I look after our PM team, our design team, our clinical team, and I'm part of the exec team. So that means that like my diary week to week is really varied, which I absolutely love. Yeah. But that's why the planning's super helpful, because I have to make sure that depending on where we are, like what phase of like what our goals are as a business, I flex how much I'm spending on each of those times. Right now, I'm spending heaps of time on design because we're re like we're doing some work to like redesign our design process. Like, okay, let's leverage the latest like AI tools and change how we do some of these things. Let's experiment and just natural evolution as well.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Is that as a result of the evolution of the products?

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah, and also just like looking at like the tools that are now available. Like our engineers are now using clawed code, uh, we're doing we're experimenting with spec driven development. Um, we're looking at like loads more, um, loads more of the organizations now prototyping, that's not isolated to design. Like, there's a lot of changes in the ways that we're working. So that's like one of my biggest focuses at the moment is actually getting hands-on with the team, like trying these tools myself, working through problems with the team and um helping them to experiment and to us to redesign the way that we work. And that has to be my number one priority at the minute. And then I'm trying to work out okay, how do I put in all the other bits? And the other, the other big thing that was my priority a few weeks ago was strategy. How's our strategy evolved? The latest development of AI, like what's that mean for our product strategy? Spending heaps of time with our CEO, our CTO thinking through strategy, that became my focus for a few weeks. Um, and now I'm looking at ways of working to actually now execute on that strategy. So I'd say I kind of flex my focuses, my focus. Yeah. Um, and but I'm mindful of like uh when some when I've had my foot off the gas on one area, like making sure I go back to that at some point as well. That's why planning, like taking a step back, are so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

I'm not gonna sit here and say that you know I I I have everything covered and everything's rhythmical and yeah and really structured because we've got the intent of it to try and be with the teams that Ricky and I have run over the years, but yeah, you know, and it gets to scale and you have to adapt the way that you work, but at the same time, you there are things at day to day where it's a bit ad hoc, and then you have to suddenly change something or something becomes a priority, or you know, there's that there's not a like a complete, you know, one one size fits all element to this. Yeah, yeah. And and it yeah, it's it's it's interesting to to hear how you talk about that because it it's obviously it's it is it is very involved, isn't it? Yeah, so it's it's so involved, but yeah, but it it sounds like you know, there's day to day, and also you're in a fast, you know, you're in a you're in a a fast-paced sort of scale up business that that and things are moving at pace because they have to.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

So and if you don't, you know, if you don't, you get left behind.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

Um totally. On that, on that note, yeah. I I you know obviously I I know you've just other people won't, but you've just had a very uh exciting and very successful uh trip out to India.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Um and it looked amazing by the way, and I know that we've we've obviously spoken sort of off-air, and you you said it was absolutely fantastic. What's talk to us about some of the challenges that you find building teams internationally because that's a big factor in your role now. Yeah, uh getting the right people. And obviously, people listening to this will be thinking about you know how they work with offshore teams. Um, some businesses don't do that, but a lot of businesses are. It might even become a bit more of a factor now with the you know the the economy being the way it has. And you know, I know quite a few companies that have decided to to offshore uh and they're really kind of reaping the benefits in lots of different ways. Tell us about some of the experiences and some of the challenges you've had doing that, you know, particularly recently.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Yeah, absolutely. So we set up an office in um India in a place called Pondicherry, um, which is southern India, uh, and it's been such good learning, honestly. Um so we very intentionally set up um set up a Doctor Doctor office. And so I'd say like one of the challenges is making sure that that team really feels part of Doctor Doctor when the majority of our team is in the UK. So part of the visit was actually to go build up personal relationships um there with it's mainly engineering um that we've hired, but um we've also hired people uh in marketing and our support teams um and and and project management. And it's been fantastic to spend time with the team there. Um I think one of the biggest challenges has been the time difference and like changing some of our like ceremonies, yeah, making sure that there's enough overlap. I think one thing that we did was like blended teams, um, and then we've tried subteams, and actually what I found is having um teams' own outcomes or projects in like the different locations and then all coming together. So like having subteams within a domain and all coming together, but having ownership so the team in India can execute autonomously from like not have they're not waiting for the team in the in the UK to make decisions because one of the things that is really important as a scale-up is you have to make good decisions fast. Yeah, like a company and what our head of design, Russell, always talks about like a company survives or fails based on its like speed at making decisions. And I think what we um initially had with the Indian team, the UK team, was too much coordination, overhead. Right. And we had like a very um Aishu, who leads our team in India, has done an amazing job of like inducting the Indian team into like everything doctor-doctor or company strategy, product strategy, policy, but we uh policies, everything like that. Um, but we hadn't spent enough time walking through, asking questions, doing that. So there was a lot of back and forth, a lot of coordination. Um, and what became really apparent to me is like the team in India didn't have all the strategic context that they needed to then as a subteam own something and just cut just crack on, basically. So we've learned a lot about that and also setting up the teams like culturally, like uh for success and and really embracing cultural differences and like actually like there has been like different barriers with communication, but the team has been brilliant at like working out how how to do that from like both sides as well. So it's been a real learning experience. I've never set up a um an office in India before, and so it's been a real brilliant opportunity to work out how to do that well.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

Yeah, brilliant, that's really interesting. And do you feel that a key part of that, a sort of takeaway from that, is is that it's despite the geography, you know, it could be, you know, they could be in Europe or they could be in India or you know, Manila or wherever it may be. Do you feel that like the key to that is that kind of whole um you know part being being part bit belonging? Yeah, being part of something inclusion because um a client of ours at the moment is um they're they're setting up a big engineering uh function in Lisbon.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 52:02

Um obviously it's the same time zone, right? Yeah, but you know, it is a couple of hours away on a plane, and one of the things that they're really making sure of is like being out there a lot, being very present. Because obviously it I think that the the whole kind of dynamic changes as well when you're actually you've you've made the time and and taken the time and the conscious of it to go and meet someone in person and be with them because I don't think there's any doubt that that has a really positive impact on the way that you influence people for sure.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

I I massively believe that it's such a part of leadership is having that time in person, building up the relationships, yeah, and like it helps to build the trust and the psychological safety as well. I think if you don't invest that time, you really, really pay for it. I'm a big believer in hybrid working, but you do have to have enough face-to-face time. I I genuinely think you need to spend time together in an office, round whiteboard, going out for to do things as a team, like going out for dinner, whatever it might be. You need to invest in those activities to be able to be able to get the team feeling like a team.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

Yeah, I and you know, how having scaled the teams that we that Ricky and I have over the years, and obviously now doing it for ourselves now, yeah, um, is something that I'm really passionate about. But also that whole kind of trust element, empowering people, uh, you know, giving people autonomy, um, I think is is a huge thing. And also you see the people who want to embrace that.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

But when you when you're abroad, you know, when you've got teams offshore and you go somewhere like that, I think that that belonging is really important. And this particular client at the moment, they're saying that you know they want to make sure that you know they're there because they can assess the skills of the people they they know that can do that and can grow and really like really run with it and grab it and embrace it, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:44

So I think it's important to empower the leadership also in the in the office in India for us um to be able to do that themselves and to make sure that there's the right connections between the leadership in the UK and the leadership in India, working together to create like a really high-performing team, but understanding that the way that we do that might differ based on geography as well. So there might be cultural differences and accepting that learning from that um is is really important.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

Okay, great. An interesting question as well. Do you think that that is even more important when you have the uh the distance, geographical distance that you have, which obviously then dictates time difference and time zones? Yeah. Do you think that's even more important? Because obviously there's crossovers where I think India are six or seven hours ahead, right? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, there's times when obviously there's decisions being made when you know the UK and etc. is not online. Is it even more important that that autonomy really kind of shines through? Because there's times when decision is going to be made, and you don't want to have to have too much of a lag because that just you know, time is is money, right? So is that is that a big factor as well?

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Totally. I think it's about being really clear on what decisions we're making and when and how, and yeah, like I actually think being really clear, it's it's funny because it's not just about um it's not just about like different uh teams in different jo geographies. At the minute we're thinking a lot about decision making in terms of like actually how we build product using AI, like who makes the final calls on certain things. So we're actually doing a lot to define how we make good decisions and and what the different levels of decisions are because you're right, like something that like say, I don't know, we've got um a bug that needs fixing. We just need a decision to fix the book and like get that shipped, stop that affecting um use big strategy decision. You want everybody online at the linement around that, right? Like you don't want to be making that off the cuff. So like we're thinking about different types of decisions um and how we make them a lot at the minute, not just because we've got uh we've set up a a new office in India, but just in general, like how we do that well in an AI, like when we have AI native product teams, because we've got the roles between PM, designer, engineer increasingly blurring. So, like the previous um Venn diagram of who did what doesn't really work anymore. Like we're seeing blurred boundaries. Um, and so I actually this morning spent a bunch uh spent time with our designers talking about like prototyping and where like how we actually like get our design system in a place where engineers can really fast change things in the code, but it's within our design system. Like there's yeah, there's lots of stuff that we're exploring around decision making and who does what at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Okay, interesting. Um we we we we can't get through this podcast, right, without you mentioned it just now, and we've touched on it a few times, but I think in the world we live in and the way that things are and our technology space is evolving, it is you know probably be remiss of us not to talk about AI, yeah, uh just in general, but more probably more specifically, like how you see it impacting, and that's not positive or negative, like your business, your industry, yeah um, you know, and and just overall like the effect of it and how you how you guys are using it. So I'm yeah, yeah. I'm sure everyone else would to be to sort of hear your perspective on that. Because one of the things that really made me laugh, we we got together for coffee and you said um I saw house things and we were talking about, you know, as we always do, various different bits and pieces, and you said, Oh, you know, it's really interesting because at the time, I think this was a couple of years ago, you said, Oh, you know, we we have like agendas in board meetings and we sort of go through you know X, Y, and Z and lots of stuff that we get to cover. And the the final point was, Oh, I suppose, oh, you know, and it was just AI, but there was nothing specific and detailed around it, but it was there because everyone just thought as a board and leadership team that it should be something you talk about. I guess it's probably moved on a bit from that, yeah, for sure. But I'm just really yeah, yeah, but I'm just really keen to understand, you know, your perspective on AI overall and within your business.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

Yeah, I guess with AI, big buzzword at the minute, but for good reason, actually. I think when we probably were talking about AI a couple of years ago, I was probably thinking, oh, it's in in healthcare a lot of the time, it's like machine learning. I I didn't think it would like transform the way that we're working, like to the extent that it is right now. But now I'm so I'm I'm like really optimistic, slightly terrified, but really optimistic around but wouldn't be without it. Yeah, as in that, yeah, as in how do we cope with it, you know. Yeah, exactly. And personally and professionally, like I've built systems for my personal life that like automate away loads of the stuff that I don't like doing. Like, and I've been having so much fun doing that. And actually, understanding the latest tools, often I'll try and use a personal use case to build up my confidence before thinking about applying it within dot stats in the health in the health tech space because even when I go there, I'm like, oh god, well, how do we manage like the rate? Like, how do we how do we do this in practice? Um uh so in terms of like AI and what I'm thinking about at the minute, a lot of the time right now, we are it's really as a leader about giving the teams the space to experiment. They know their domains and the problems that they need to solve better than anyone. And it's about giving them the space to learn the tools and experiment with the tools, and that's what we've been doing. So we've been calling it like slow down, speed up, like we've just been giving teams cover and space to experiment, and it's been so exciting to see. So we've got various Slack channels that are like kind of guilds where people are sharing the latest things that they've been building or that what they've used AI for, and and it and it's like sharing the wins, but it's not it's not just the wins, it's also the learnings. Like we're trying to, we're still learning how to make sure AI's got all the right context that it needs to be really effective, how um how to basically set ourselves up in a way I was talking about earlier about like design systems, how to do that in like we're we're experimenting with like people are reading blog posts or listening to podcasts, coming in with ideas and then just trying things. Right. And I'm loving that like learn learning culture that we're we're cultivating. Like I think um I remember reading a book uh I think about Microsoft where they talked about um shifting Microsoft from a know it all to a learn it all culture, and that was a big part of like Microsoft becoming super successful.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

What it is again, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

And um, I just love that, and I love being in the environment. I sat next to one of our engineers the other day and I was doing something in terminal with cold code and kept getting kept getting so stuck. And I just got some tips from him, and he was like, Oh, just have you tried this. And then I was showing him some of my use cases, and I was showing him like what I was doing to like automate some stuff from like documentation. Like I do a lot of, as you know, I'm quite chatty, so I do a lot of like speech to text, transcript. Like, if I'm like need to do an exec paper or write up, like I'm dyslexic, so writing long papers is not my back.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

So this is like a good sending for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

AI has been transformative for me because what I can do is I can chat, I use super whisper, chat and super whisper, download my brain. I don't have to think about it being structured or articulate. I just am like, these are all the things I'm thinking about. And I've and um uh like I then like basically build up a like a bank of different voice notes on a topic, and then I chuck it all into Claude and say, give it some prompt it, give it some instructions, say like create this into like create whatever I need to create, usually like a paper or something like a deck, maybe. But like we've kind of trained trained Claude, like Robbie, our head of marketing's kind of trained Claude, so it's got our brand guidelines, tone of voice and stuff. So we can spin up decks or um a paper like really fast in a way that doesn't drain my energy. That type of stuff used to drain me. It just gives you so much time back, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, and obviously it gets you 80% there. Like, I think the thing to be really clear about, like, so I see this with like the proliferation of like products that look really nearly there, but actually the key thing, it's like the product, the document that's been spit out with AI, you need to refine it often. Like often you need to like you need to give Claude or whatever AI tool feedback on what worked, what didn't. So it's learning, it's getting better. But I've been doing that over the last few months and just see how much more powerful it gets, like how how nailed it's got my tone of voice now and the way that the way that I write. It it blows my mind. It really does blow my mind. And and it makes me so much more effective and efficient. You were talking earlier about like how do I split my time across all of these different things. I've like built systems to help me do that as well, like where I'm automate I'm automating away the lower value. So we've got like the MCP integrations with Slack and no shit, and like stuff that would have because particularly being dyslexic, stuff like replying to a Slack message or like yeah, like doing that really, really fast. I can now do with a few bullets, and because Claude's got my tone of voice down, it's like it's so good. It's yeah, it's transforming the way that we work, but I don't quite know what we'll sustain just yet. Like we're experimenting a lot, we're learning a lot, and we've taken calls on different things. So there's some things that we're like quite bullish on, and we're like, right, okay, we're gonna commit to doing things differently. Um, but there's some things where we're like, we've got no idea. Like we've we tried to do just spec driven development for one area of the product, and we've gone back to doing it the old way, right? Like there's there's certain areas where it's really working well, where it's more greenfield, it's certain areas where uh like small optimizations, lots of excitement around that in the teams at the minute, but then there's like other areas where we've found it really, really hard. And we've spent quite a bit. We've spent like we've we think we like it makes you feel like you've got loads of momentum, and then you hit a wall, and that that last 20% temp, whatever it is, is actually really hard. And it's actually like the amount of time you spent doing that, like it's like did it actually overall help? Like, so a lot of the time I'm trying to think about it in this systematic way of like, okay, as a product org, what can we put in place to make everybody like make this easier for everybody? Yeah, um, but it's been really cool to become to see the teams also getting super energized. Like, obviously, at first we were all a bit like, gosh, what does this mean for us? And as individuals, you're like, yeah, what does this mean for my job? Like, I'm like as product leader, and I could look at those of my product leadership books or product books and be like, a lot of that stuff's not that relevant anymore, could might as well chuck them out type thing. But that for me, personality-wise, like in my personality type, I mean, um, it's I quite like that. Yeah, yeah. Oh, we're redesigning how we work, how excited, but also it's important to acknowledge that not everyone's gonna feel that way. And it's like you leading people through that change, yeah, has really important and being mindful of the human element of it and how it's so understandable to be like, what does this mean for me as an individual? And like people have mastered crafts for years, and then like this don't really. Of blogs where it's like AI will just do all the coding or all the designing, and I don't believe that at all. Um I don't think a lot of people do to be there, but yeah, yeah, but there was so much hype towards the start of the year a year or two ago, they didn't know as much as we know now. But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

I I think I I think most people probably agree as well. Um anyone watching this would be like, you know, you said it earlier that you know AI just blows your mind. I mean, yeah, there's not a day go goes by where I hear something or someone shows me something and you know sort of demonstrates something or runs through something where I'm like, that's just nuts. Yeah, like it's just nuts. How it's like I I had this mindset of like, you know, what's someone gonna show me next?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:41

But you think someone's showing you something, and it just you're like, uh you just mind absolutely frazzled, and then yeah, the next day someone's you know shows you something that's just topped it. So I did and and you know, there's there's so much clever stuff with it, you know, as you say, like training it and you know, all that sort of stuff. And I I'm I'm embracing it, and I'm you know, I I want to educate myself every day, but I I I hear all these things, so it's it's really interesting to get your take on it, particularly within that sort of hell tech sort of space as well. Yeah, I think look, you know, in this sort of in order to, you know, we're kind of at the stage where we're sort of going to wrap it up, unfortunately, but time's just flown by. But um, some of the takeaways that I've that I've got from this from you is I think one of the big things is, or a few of the big things are have conviction and believing your belief in yourself. Yeah, yeah. Um, and one of the things that you said, which really resonated with me, and I hope it does with people listening to this, is when you're looking at opportunities, not maybe just sort of looking at a new role within a different company, looking to move, or within the company that you're in, you know, really understand and evaluate what impact you can have on in that role. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that that comes as part of believing in yourself and having that conviction, but but also really understanding and and actually being at peace within yourself about what impact you can genuinely make. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:54

That's that's a totally people can get um so obsessive with the process, do you know, like a competency framework or a and like a JD, and like think that like if you tick all those boxes, that'll equal like progression. And I always say to people, focus on having an impact and the rest will figure itself out. Yeah. Because you're going to get the promotion or you'll get the springboard into a brilliant new role if you have an impact and you can evidence that impact. So if you focus yourself on having the biggest impact that you can have, every like everybody wins. The company you're working for wins, but you win. Like it, and that's how you progress your career. Like people can really pour over like a competency framework. And I'm like, oh, I don't like it's important, but it's a tool for you to use to work out how to have an impact, yeah, rather than the actual thing you need to tickle the boxes from. I I it's something that I think uh people can get lost in. But actually, if you have conviction, you go at you're you're self-aware and you know what you're good at, and you work out how to like basically do what you're good at to have an impact. Yeah, like you're on to a winner.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:12

Yeah, 100%. And and with all that in mind, right, just to wrap this up, kind of final word from you. Yeah, what would you say to people watching this who are aspiring to be product leaders? You're in a a brilliant position where you can you can comment on that. I would love to hear, and I'm sure other people would, your advice. What advice would you give people looking to, you know, be in, you know, work their way, progress their way up? There might be a product manager now, they've got those aspirations and those, you know, they're they're really um driven people. What would what advice would you give them as a as a sort of final kind of parting comment?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:48

Uh be clear on why. Be really clear on why you want to go into product leadership and what what type of role you want, like what type of organization, like what is it about product leadership that is so exciting for you? Having that clarity helps you choose not only the type of environment that you'll go into to be a product leader, but it also like it helps you get really clear on what you need to get good at, like what skills you need to develop. Because like as a product leader, you can go like really, really broad and get like good at lots of different areas, or you can pick your like USP, like what do I stand for as a product leader? Where are my where are my strengths? Where are my weaknesses? Like, where where do I where do I need to develop for this next like next thing? Like, so for example, when I took this executive role, one of my biggest gaps was like the financial side of things, or at least that was my perceived gap. It actually turned out classically that I knew more about it than I thought I did. But like I was like, okay, right, I'm gonna go and chat to some CFOs and work out what type of thing a really stellar CPO director of products, like what do they know? What are they really good at? What makes them stellar? And then that becomes my learning and development plan for my next leap. It's like, okay, what type of leader do I need to sorry, what type of leader do I want to be? What types of skills might I develop like to get me there? Like, where are my gaps? And where are the gaps that are just like absolutely fine? I remember like once looking at like data science. I'm not, that's not my bag. So I learnt just how to be good enough at data science to get to the next level. To come to an understanding, yeah. Yeah, I can understand it, but I'm not, I'm not an expert in data science. I'm not an expert in like detailed data analysis. It's not my bag. Yeah. Um, but actually like identifying the things where you're like, okay, that's not my bag. I'll be good enough at that. And this is the stuff that I really need to excel at, and these are the gaps. Like, speak to people. Honestly, people are so, so willing to help. I've been overwhelmed with the generosity that people have shown me over the years around like speaking to people in CPA roles and being like, okay, like I want to be leading product at an organization similar stage to you, similar type of role. Like, what's your role actually look like? And then I'm like, okay, that's what I want to do. So here's where I am now. What's the gap? Like, what would you advise? Yeah. You do that and your own research, and that gives you your roadmap.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:34

Okay, brilliant. I think that is absolutely fantastic advice. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you. Pleasure as always. Love spending time with you. It's been great to chat. And uh, yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. Appreciate it.